How to formulate a properly foaming cationic cleansing conditioner?

Tagged: cationic-surfactant, conditioner, foam, hair-conditioner, refatting-cleansers

Formulating

How to formulate a properly foaming cationic cleansing conditioner?

Posted by Gunther on March 5, 2019 at 5:00 pm

I have been trying to formulate properly foaming cleansing conditioners
cationics don’t foam much on their own, so an additional, mild surfactant must be added

So far I have tried:
CAPB and glucosides = they thin out and destabilize emulsion at higher concentrations needed for proper foaming
ethoxylated fatty alcohols = not that mild
anionics = not compatible with BTMS or CETAC cationics
Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate = just ordered it, waiting for it to arrive to try it

Any other ideas?

The basic formulas I have tried are something like
- water q.s. to 100%
- Methylparaben 0.3%
- Propylparaben 0.1%
- BTMS-50 3-5%
- CETAC 0-0.5% active (it improves foam a bit, but also thins out the formulation, unless cetearyl alcohol is added)
- Polyquaternium-7 0-0.5% active
- Cetearyl alcohol 0-4% (it reduces foam a bit, but increases viscosity and seems to improve emulsion stability)
- Silicones (dimethicone, dimethiconol) 0-1% active. Will replace them with Amodimethicone, as they seem to reduce foaming too.
- Synthetic fragrance
- Polyox WSR301 0-0.1%

Thanks

Gunther replied 4 years, 6 months ago 5 Members · 13 Replies
13 Replies

ngarayeva001

Member
March 5, 2019 at 6:26 pm

Sarcosinate is anionic too… I am sure you will find a use for it, but it probably won’t work with BTMS
Gunther

Member
March 7, 2019 at 4:15 pm

ngarayeva001 said:

Sarcosinate is anionic too… I am sure you will find a use for it, but it probably won’t work with BTMS

Ain’t Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate supposed to be compatible with cationics like CETAC or Behentrimonium?
https://www.crodapersonalcare.com/en-gb/products-and-applications/product-finder/product/170/Crodasinic_1_LS30
ngarayeva001

Member
March 7, 2019 at 7:03 pm

Sorry @Gunther, I couldn’t find any info on it’s compatability with cationics. Which document are you referring to?

Even if it’s not compatible with cationics, it’s an incredible surfactant. I received mine two days ago and was very impressed. I coudn’t not achieve similar result with any other surfactant I have ever tried. Still figuring out how to thicken it properly.
Gunther

Member
March 13, 2019 at 1:10 am

ngarayeva001 said:

Sorry @Gunther, I couldn’t find any info on it’s compatability with cationics. Which document are you referring to?

Even if it’s not compatible with cationics, it’s an incredible surfactant. I received mine two days ago and was very impressed. I coudn’t not achieve similar result with any other surfactant I have ever tried. Still figuring out how to thicken it properly.

Several formulas in the Internet have sarcosinates along cationics like CETAC.
Table 2: High Lather Crème Rinse Shampoo

Component Composition (w/w) %

Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, 30% 20.0

Coco betaine, 35% 10.0

Lauramide DEA 5.0

Cetrimonium chloride, 30% 0.8

Steralkonium chloride, 25% 0.1

Disodium DTA 0.2

Water, perfume, preservative q.s.

Adjust pH to 6.7
http://glenncorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Chattem-Hamposyl-Applications-Data.pdf

Do you know if sarcosinates can be thickened with Crothix or Carbopol?
ngarayeva001

Member
March 13, 2019 at 1:18 pm

Crothix works. I almost gave up already and then tried crothix.
Gunther

Member
August 8, 2019 at 1:25 am

This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

Phase A.
Water 60%
Polyquaternium 0.7%
Triethanolamine 0.05%
Heat and stir

Phase B
Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
EDTA Na-4 0.1%
Methylparaben 0.3%
Propylparaben 0.105%
BTMS-50 5%
CETAC solution 2%

Phase C
Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
Dimethicone 350 0.75%
Dow Amodimethicone 8087 0.75%
Premix and stir
Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

Dehyton-K 10% (3% active CAPB)
Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
Cocamide DEA 1%
Cetearyl alcohol 4%
qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
Fragance 0.4%

Phase D
Glycerin 1%
Polyox 0.1%
Premix, and add to the previous phases.
belassi

Member
August 8, 2019 at 6:36 pm

Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?
Gunther

Member
August 9, 2019 at 6:35 pm

Belassi said:

Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?

Thanks. I will see if it’s available here.

CAPB seems to destabilize the cationic emulsion more than any other surfactant. I wonder if it’s because its salt content.
Aziz

Member
August 11, 2019 at 2:36 am

Gunther said:

Belassi said:

Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?

Thanks. I will see if it’s available here.

CAPB seems to destabilize the cationic emulsion more than any other surfactant. I wonder if it’s because its salt content.

Does CAPB destabilize dimethicone shampoo also ?
Gunther

Member
August 11, 2019 at 4:06 am

Aziz said:

Does CAPB destabilize dimethicone shampoo also ?

It depends on what the surfactant is.
For typical SLES based shampoos, dimethicone is solubilized (emulsified?) by dodecylbenzene sulfonates or ethoxylated alcohols.

And no, CAPB doesn’t seem to destabilize those formulations as much.
I believe it has to do with SLES shampoos being mostly a solution with only a minor part of it being an emulsion holding small amounts of silicone in place,
as compared to cationic conditioner formulas where all of it is an emulsion, as needed to hold large amounts of (nonethoxylated) fatty alcohols (i.e. cetyl or cetoesterayl alcohols) in place.

But cationic formulations are WAY more conditioning than anionic or nonionic ones so they’re worth trying, IMO.
Gunther

Member
August 17, 2019 at 8:36 pm

Gunther said:

This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

Phase A.
Water 60%
Polyquaternium 0.7%
Triethanolamine 0.05%
Heat and stir

Phase B
Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
EDTA Na-4 0.1%
Methylparaben 0.3%
Propylparaben 0.105%
BTMS-50 5%
CETAC solution 2%

Phase C
Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
Dimethicone 350 0.75%
Dow Amodimethicone 8087 0.75%
Premix and stir
Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

Dehyton-K 10% (3% active CAPB)
Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
Cocamide DEA 1%
Cetearyl alcohol 4%
qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
Fragance 0.4%

Phase D
Glycerin 1%
Polyox 0.1%
Premix, and add to the previous phases.

It looks like there are several things hindering foam

1. The surfactants are used at low levels and are mild.
3% active CAPB
3% active Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate
1% cocamide DEA
3% laureth-9
So I may try increasing them.

2. According to a study, 2% dimethicone (PDMS) hinders foaming to half, while amodimethicone (ADMS) only reduces it by about 10%
So I will try switching to 1.5% amodimethicone instead of 0.75% dimethicone, 0.75% amodimethicone.

3. Fatty alcohols reduce foaming.
I will try reducing that while still getting good viscosity and feel.
Will try switching to cetyl instead of cetearyl alcohol.

4. CETAC doesn’t seem to offer anything that BTMS doesn’t, and it’s supposed to reduce viscosity, potentially needing more foam reducing fatty alcohols to restore viscosity.
Although I didn’t notice 2% CETAC solution dropping viscosity too much. Not clearly visible to the naked eye.

5. I will try some Crothix thickener to reduce fatty alcohols usage.
Albeit I tried thickening it with Crothix before and it lead to a “watered-down” white, instead of a creamy white that fatty alcohols provide.
bil7

Member
October 14, 2019 at 7:31 pm

Just try synthalen w 400 good thickner and stabilizer with suspension properties
Gunther

Member
October 15, 2019 at 12:55 am

Gunther said:

Gunther said:

This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

Phase A.
Water 60%
Polyquaternium 0.7%
Triethanolamine 0.05%
Heat and stir

Phase B
Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
EDTA Na-4 0.1%
Methylparaben 0.3%
Propylparaben 0.105%
BTMS-50 5%
CETAC solution 2%

Phase C
Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
Dimethicone 350 0.75%
Dow Amodimethicone 8087 0.75%
Premix and stir
Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

Dehyton-K 10% (3% active CAPB)
Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
Cocamide DEA 1%
Cetearyl alcohol 4%
qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
Fragance 0.4%

Phase D
Glycerin 1%
Polyox 0.1%
Premix, and add to the previous phases.

It looks like there are several things hindering foam

1. The surfactants are used at low levels and are mild.
3% active CAPB
3% active Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate
1% cocamide DEA
3% laureth-9
So I may try increasing them.

2. According to a study, 2% dimethicone (PDMS) hinders foaming to half, while amodimethicone (ADMS) only reduces it by about 10%
So I will try switching to 1.5% amodimethicone instead of 0.75% dimethicone, 0.75% amodimethicone.

3. Fatty alcohols reduce foaming.
I will try reducing that while still getting good viscosity and feel.
Will try switching to cetyl instead of cetearyl alcohol.

4. CETAC doesn’t seem to offer anything that BTMS doesn’t, and it’s supposed to reduce viscosity, potentially needing more foam reducing fatty alcohols to restore viscosity.
Although I didn’t notice 2% CETAC solution dropping viscosity too much. Not clearly visible to the naked eye.

5. I will try some Crothix thickener to reduce fatty alcohols usage.
Albeit I tried thickening it with Crothix before and it lead to a “watered-down” white, instead of a creamy white that fatty alcohols provide.

This formula separated after a few weeks

Doing some knock off testing, I figured out that it’s the Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate that’s causing it.
The one with CAPB did fine.