[Graillotion]

This is not my area….but making sure we did not overlook the elephant in the room….

Have you looked at Colonial’s D6 and D9

Not sure what all rules you are working against…but usually their stuff is embraced by the greenies?!

(Don’t let descriptions like ‘fragrance solubilizer’ scare you off….these products are used for all sorts of purposes….. If ever there was a Swiss Army knife in cosmetics…. ???? )

[Graillotion]

Umh….how are you checking pH?

Since the phases are reversed….. you cannot just dip your meter in….and expect a correct result.

I would adjust the water phase before combining…and call it good.

Have you ever considered just making a cationic O/W emulsion, to address your desired outcome?

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

I assume you are using it as a chelate?

When we look at chelating cationics…there are two things we look at

1) Dosing

2) Number of negative charges.

So, to address the first….we use good quality water…and the very low end of use rate.

Secondly, chelates will have different amounts of negative charges, some up to 12 negative charges…. some only have 3. As an example, why EDTA and GLDA get used so much, is they only have 3 negative charges…hence cause far less disruption than say a product with 12.

Bottom line….there is a reason…GLDA is the most universal (not the best….EDTA is king) of the chelates. In my opinion….it checks more boxes than any other chelate on the market. (Just opinion.)

[Graillotion]

chelates also have pH working ranges…where they perform at their best.

The one you mentioned likes higher pH’s, hence is often found in laundry detergent.

MFG propaganda…tends to be a little liberal…when it comes to best option selections, and ranges.

[Graillotion]

Question is a bit vague….

I’ll toss this out …. as a purveyor of emollients.

Some will leave pronounced skin shine…while others will leave a matte finish or no shine at all.

Hence if shine = glow …. simply switch things up to shine leaving emollients. You don’t need to use more emollients….just those that leave a shine …. if I understand you correctly.

As an example… I had to decide between two awesome emollients …. Dicaprylyl carbonate and Ethylhexyl Isononanoate. They are very similar, but the latter leaves less of a gloss….which is my preference….hence I selected it as the one I keep in the lab.

[Graillotion]

Aloe is water soluble, butters are not.

I think we need a little more detail. How are you combining them?

Aloe, as you know….is magnificent bug food.

[Graillotion]

Well first answer would be …. cationics and silicones. ????

Second answer would be…ingredients with ‘brassica’ in the name. If I recall…..Inolex has some of these tools.

Good luck….you will need it.

[Graillotion]

Note: Most beginner and mid-level (Facebook type) deos….antagonize/conflict with TEC. Not to says there are not 100’s of garbage brands that unknowingly make this mistake….as for the most part, their research involves looking at other folk’s INCI’s.

TEC is a compliment to low pH products, not the high pH products. It only works as an emollient, for products that when combined with skin and sweat, result in neutral and above pH’s.

[Graillotion]

Many w/o formulas, especially modern ones…have a very low oil content/phase.

It only refers to the orientation of the phases…not the content.

You should still look at cationic o/w’s as an alternative.

[Graillotion]

Improving Stability of Water-in-Oil Emulsions (ulprospector.com)

ulprospector.com

Ask the Expert: My water-in-oil emulsion is unstable. What can I do?

One of the easiest ways to improve stability is to increase the dispersed water phase to >60%. This increases the viscosity of the emulsion due to internal p

[Graillotion]

Correct…..you can have a w/o with a smaller oil phase.

If you truly have a w/o…then you cannot measure pH (easily) beyond the water phase. Whatever reading you get after combining…is an irrelevant reading. Your meter ALWAYS says something…..just wave it over your head, while dancing on one leg, and throwing eye of newt over your left shoulder…..and you will have a reading….but a meaningless one. ????

[Graillotion]

Emulsion type…is determined by the emulsifier.

[Graillotion]

Well maybe you overlooked it….but they do have ‘kindness’ in there, at the end of the INCI. ????

[Graillotion]

If it is water based…you use water soluble anti-ox’s

If it is oil based…. you use oil soluble anti-ox’s.

????

[Graillotion]

You can NOT measure the pH of a w/o emulsion. (There is some debate on certain hoops one can jump through…. but for a basic rule of thumb…. stick with that comment.)

That is equivalent to waiving your pH meter over your head….and saying that is the pH of air!

If you set your water pH correctly….then that should be sufficient. 🙂 Any reading beyond the water phase will not be accurate.

[Graillotion]

I have heard (not ever used) the benchmark brand will begin to discolor once opened. I would suspect the imposter….will discolor at a slower rate. ????

[Graillotion]

So, in your example….where they are fragrance free….they had no way to hide it. 🙂

[Graillotion]

BTW….this ingredient gets used more often than you can begin to imagine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just most folks will list it on the inci….as…. wait for it…. Fragrance. ????

What do you think is sold to beginners…to keep their vanilla (vanillin) scented products from browning????? (And it always has the inci: fragrance.) One of those little loopholes…. Shhhhhh.

[Graillotion]

Are you fully understanding the aspects of how antioxidants work in emulsions?

Rule # 1 … Day one of cosmetic training. Rule number 1 is….. antioxidants only work in the phase they are soluble in! Hence all the E and ROE in the world….will not touch something that is oxidizing in the water phase (yes this still holds true, when the phases are combined…..they only look combined to your eye…and why they are still referred to as inner and outer phase….even once combined).

So, the ingredients you mentioned….will work wonders…. for ingredients that are water soluble, and thinking about oxidizing.

Take-away….is this does NOT replace E or ROE….but works along side it….in the opposite phase.

Good luck.

[Graillotion]

What is the name of the company, product, and are samples available through UL Prospector?

[Graillotion]

Love the stuff…but it is cationic in an acidic environment.

Are you saying use a loophole…and keep the pH up…where it might not be considered….cationic?

Would it still have the desired properties, in a higher pH range? I have never explored that….as all my work falls on the acidic side of life. ????

[Graillotion]

Many of your countryfolk (as do I), get ingredients here:

Polyglyceryl-3 Distearate (myskinrecipes.com)

myskinrecipes.com

Polyglyceryl-3 Distearate

Use as a water-in-oil emulsifier in various make-up recipes

[Graillotion]

I see you never got around to using the good stuff…in all those years! ????

I learned about a month in….where the good stuff came from. ????

Just went to the lab fridge…and ate some ICSC Murumuru….absolutely delicious….well absolutely flavorless…and completely devoid of scent.

There is a REASON….I always quantify my comments….with the source being the best in the world (ICSC out of Denmark). ???? Wouldn’t let a filthy butter….touch me, from any other company.

[Graillotion]

This forum also has a message board. See top right of your screen….

I will send you a recommendation…. in private. (Of course this is not me!)

[Graillotion]

This is the nature of the beast….when working with natural ingredients….you cannot guarantee you are getting the same thing…batch to batch. Now you know why professional formulas try to stick with synthetic…as you can almost guarantee consistency….decade to decade.

That aside… tempering butters is simply mommy blogger blather…to keep the masses coming back for more…since it solves NOTHING. You can control one melt and set cycle …. but your very next melt cycle….intended or otherwise….allows the stearic particles to reassemble in a new order….maybe good…maybe bad.

So, if you look at your butters…..you have two very VERY high stearic butters (your enemy). So, there are add-ins….to help with this issue but guessing by your INCI…you probably don’t want polyglycerols on the label.

What are your other options? First I would suggest only using the best butters on the planet. This will also give you the most consistent butters (batch to batch) on the market as well. Look into refined butters from ICSC out of Denmark. These folks will bend over backwards to help you. If you cannot buy their MOQ….contact your supplier, and pressure them to buy these better butters.

Secondly….let’s look at stearic levels in butters…. (Note: The cocoa butter bar is wrong…..they have the stearic wrongly marked….so just ignore the cocoa.)

So the purple part of the bar is your problem…..so if you look for alternatives….maybe your eye might drift towards Murumuru…. dang…. almost no stearic….No wonder if feels like magic….instead of stearic gross. A simple swap….will reduce your stearic inputs….and should go miles in alleviating your issue.

Bottom line….1) reduce your stearic levels….and you don’t have to do the ingredient add-ins…for fixing stearic issues. 2) Use the best butters in the world….you will get better consistency (within what nature can offer).

Good Luck