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letsalcido said:

 

Long story short, the best cure is prevention. Stay safe, and keep away from riot control.

I second that….Just don’t riot.

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I agree!  Cetyl Esters (in my opinion) also feels better and drier than Cetyl A.  MM is also a choice…for dry and powdery.

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africanbug said:

Graillotion said:

@Graillotion

the Bamix pro comes with this head as well. it can handle up to 4 minutes of continuous use then it gets hot..

And….that is the head you like?

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Pharma said:

 the perfect moment to incorporate fragrances.

If I am adding fragrance to a lotion….late in cool down, and the emulsion does not like high shear….late in the cool down….is simple stirring…good enough to incorporate a fragrance oil?

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Pharma said:

 With many (but not quite all) creams it’s advantageous to homogenise again once cooled down,

Just curious….doe it matter which emulsifier you use?  I thought I had read something about the lamellar types did not like high speed homogenization….late in the cool down phase?  Something about destroying the structure?  Just trying to learn…is that the (but not quite all) exception?

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ggpetrov said:

Graillotion said:

ggpetrov said:

My “stirrer” is actually a plain kitchen mixer by Bosch. 

Yes….that is my plan B….
Hehehe…..but I had in my mind….that I could find a reasonably priced unit….that did both steps…. Homogenize…and stir.

I have a 6.5 Qt. Kitchenaide, and was just going to buy the paddle with the (bowl) scraper.

Sounds like an opportunity for an enterprising individual! :smiley: 

If you take a look at the article you will understand that the paddle mixer and the homogenizer are different things. They are not equal, but as the author of the article said - the paddle stirrer is “must have devise” and more universal, and the homogenizer is a kind of lux.

You can check this device https://www.carlroth.com/com/en/units/agitators-rotilabo-speed/p/n372.1 It’s much cheaper than Dynamix.

Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuwIhHa7yaU&feature=youtu.be

You can see the comparison between Kai Blendia and Dynamix by the same author.

Hehehe…..I watched that video before….that shows how serious I am about this….hehehehe….her voice drives me nuts…in about 8 seconds!   Hehehe….and Kai is not available any longer….so Dynamic it will be.  Just waiting on a quote for the attachment.
And yes…I am keenly aware of the difference between a stirrer and homogenizer.  

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Pharma said:

It catches oxygen which isn’t obvious although it’s an antioxidant. Unlike phenolics such as tocopherol, it also reacts with oxygen to create water whereas phenolics only neutralise reactive products formed when oxygen reacts with ‘stuff’ such as unsaturated fatty acids. Thiosulfate and bisulfides do the same, they react with oxygen and not just degraded stuff.

So do I understand you correctly…..to add ascorbic acid, or ascorbyl palmitate, as well as using one of the sulfites/sulfates….hehehe…I didn’t know if the have 3 or 4 O2 atoms.  

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Pharma said:

You’ll have to try it. Sometimes it’s equal, sometimes better (regarding antioxidation).

Smoke ring? You mean just at the top edge where product/air/jar meet?

A pound of that stuff…cost like $3….hehehe….so I can afford to try it!  
I should have clarified…. I am putting it through my torture test….clear bottle, only filled 2/3, in a warm sunny window….opening the bottle once a week to allow fresh O2 in…etc… (what I call the torture test) I was trying to see if I could make it bulletproof…hehehe.   NOPE!
When it goes to market…it will be in a colored bottle…with a pump.  I am just trying to make it crazy good….to begin with.

The smoke ring….is a off colored ring…that appears just below the surface of the lotion…somewhere between a soft orange, and soft tan.  Might only be visible at this stage….to someone looking for it.  

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Pharma said:

You’ll have to try it out. Thiosulfate, metabisulfite and sulfite aren’t expensive and you could try all three to see A: how much each really requires, B: which one has the lowest overall cost, and C: which, at it’s optimal concentration, does show the least effect on the product. Even if all are similar, they aren’t identical. And if you were to feel experimental, there’s not just sodium salts but also potassium and ammonium salts of all three available .

It would be advised to stay below 0.5%. We don’t know how much vanillin really degrades because it colours quite well. At 3% vanillin, 0.5% should be way more than enough. Hence, I’d start at ~0.05%.

Further things regarding stability:

Check pH: Vanillin is more stable under slightly acidic conditions.

The Sodium Metabisulfite…definitely helped, but did not solve the issue.  pH is running 5.5….so good.  I am getting a little brown smoke ring in the lotion….in as little as a week….but then it doesn’t seem to progress much.  I am using the meta at .3%

Should I just try the Thiosulfate instead….or try and tweak something.

I think the industry is using Thiosulfate….HOWEVER…. I think they choose that one…because they can hide it under the ‘Fragrance’ label…and don’t have to disclose it….  Metabisulfite is not on the list of ingredients I can hide….under ‘fragrance’.   

Do you have any additional thoughts….on how to get that ‘smoke ring’ out of my Vanillin lotion….hehehehe.

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Pharma said:

BTW if you were to use a dark airless dispenser, a pinch of ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate should also do the trick because you worst enemy or the real problem is oxygen and sunlight (UV). A pH above 6 simply speeds up the reaction and amines are probably not present in your product.

Can you explain to me…what the purpose/function of the ascorbic acid, or ascorbyl palmitate will do?
Thank You.

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At this point, I am really leaning towards the Dynamic, and probably springing for the rotor stator head…. although I might buy them in stages…and see how I get along without the expensive attachment first.   I like to do things to the best of my knowledge and ability, and it seems that the Dynamic is a pretty balance approach, when weighing end product (stability and quality) vs initial cost.

Anyone got a better one (that I can buy in the US) …. or should I spring for the Dynamic?

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Pharma said:

letsalcido said:

…plus you can lower the RPM and stir for a long time during cool down with an overhead stirrer.

Good point! A stick blender tends to get too warm too quickly. Most can’t even handle 1-2 minutes of high viscosity mixing.

Regarding closed shrouds, what do you think of these two products?

Steba MX21 or Gastroback Design Pro E

A cursory perusal of the US internet….and Gastroback is not sold here.  Looks like a nice one.  Looks like Steba is also not sold here.  

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Pharma said:

 what do you think of these two products?

Steba MX21 or Gastroback Design Pro E

Hey Pharma…..what would be your preferred blade for emulsification on the Steba?
This one?

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ggpetrov said:

My “stirrer” is actually a plain kitchen mixer by Bosch. 

Yes….that is my plan B….
Hehehe…..but I had in my mind….that I could find a reasonably priced unit….that did both steps…. Homogenize…and stir.

I have a 6.5 Qt. Kitchenaide, and was just going to buy the paddle with the (bowl) scraper.

Sounds like an opportunity for an enterprising individual! :smiley: 

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ggpetrov said:

. I have the DYNAMIX DMX 160 homogenizer .

When you say homogenizer….. what does the head look like? 
https://www.kopalkeittiot.fi/product/33/dynamix-blender-ac560

Like this?

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ggpetrov said:

Take a look at this article. It seems that the homogenizers for home use like Blendia, but the Dynamix is quite similar, so they can’t achieve a stable and finer emulsions compared to the professional devices.

https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/360-Kitchen-meets-cosmetic-lab-Part-2-Emulsion-with-Olivem-1000.htm

That link does not take me to the article…what year and month was that article…and then I can get there.

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Belassi said:

@Graillotion:  The key is to buy a stick blender with a rotor that has blade tips close to the shroud. By close I mean < 1mm. This creates high shear and at the RPMs a stick blender runs at, you can emulsify 4L of emulsion in minutes.

Both the Bamix, and the Dynamic have a pretty open shroud….or almost a lack of one.  However…they do have very high RPM’s.  Are you suggesting a different brand, with close shroud tolerance?

I think typical Amazon purchased stick blenders…top out around 7,000 rpm….from what I hear.

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africanbug said:

If you are also looking for plant oils and essential oils, look up these 2 distributors Ziani Organic Oils (Germany) and Scattersoils (South Africa). They are willing to sell to small businesses in smaller units like 1kg.

I am US based…(Hawaii to make things worse)… So freight usually kills any  savings.  I am getting a number of products from LotionCrafter… which has the cheapest shipping, and New Directions Aromatics…(Canada) for my EO’s and some oils, and FloraTech for some novel ingredients, and MakeYourOwn.buzz for some chemicals.
But thank you for the input…I will look at their sites….I always learn something new.

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letsalcido said:

Why not buy an overhead stirrer? Some cheap chinese ones can handle up to 40L (claim by manufacturer), can run for a long time and have adjustable speeds and can definitely handle higher viscosities.

For most emulsions it seems to me that a sawtoothed impeler would be more than enough. A rotor stator will give more stability, but it doesn’t seem to me that your product needs to be shelf-stable for over a year given the small batches. Have you stability-tested your lotions? You can probably achieve the same result with a saw toothed (disperser, medium-high shear) impeller on an overhead stirrer than you do with a regular immersion blender. 

I actually have my eye on an interesting mixer…. that I have had as plan B…if I could not find something that could give me the shear and homogenization, and double as a stirrer.  Anyone see and negatives to this? 
https://pleasanthillgrain.com/nutrimill-artiste-stand-mixer

It has a paddle scraper attachment as well…that I think would work well with lotions.  I think this company has some affiliation with Bosch…as their parts are interchangeable.

My plan was to pour into this, after creating the emulsion….and stir it through cool-down.

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africanbug said:

@Graillotion I have a Bamix pro (14,000 - 18,000) 

How small of a batch can you make with that…..I tend to make 230 gram batches when I am testing.

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africanbug said:

@Graillotion I have a Bamix pro (14,000 - 18,000) 2 speed as you said so I presume the lower speed runs at 14,000rpm. Would you like a close up shot of the blade and various heads?

Yes…hehehe….would like to see how close to the shroud they run….per Belassi’s comment. :smiley:

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Belassi said:

@Graillotion: Overkill. You mentioned batch sizes of 4L. Frankly, a stick blender of the right type is good enough to make stable emulsions using that combo you mention. The key is to buy a stick blender with a rotor that has blade tips close to the shroud. By close I mean < 1mm. This creates high shear and at the RPMs a stick blender runs at, you can emulsify 4L of emulsion in minutes.
After emulsifying the blender should be discontinued and propellor or paddle mixing used during the cool-down phase.

Are you aware of one…that meets that criteria?  Especially between the Dynamic and the Bamix?

Yes I am aware that stick blenders are sufficient, as that is what I have used for my operation the past year, which involved moving a reasonable amount of product.  But as I prepare to add two new products…I thought about cautiously moving up a level in my equipment….both quality, and slightly in capacity.

My initial product used E-wax as the emulsifier, and as I progressed to different emulsifiers, I felt like they might be more sensitive to equipment being used.

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ggpetrov said:

 You have to switch to propeller mixer after the homogenization, and then it can remove the air.

Can you post a picture of your stirrer?

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This is the set-up I dreamed about…  

https://www.misceo-cosmetics.com/gb/emulsifier-homogenizer/47-misceo-250f.html

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https://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=41675

This is the one they show for emulsifying, but sounds like this was not your top choice?