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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

  Now, if you are trying to get Organic Certification, 

Nope not chasing that at all.

Thank you.

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MarkBroussard said:

@MLJ:

Not at all … I commonly make surfactants with Aloe Vera Juice instead of water … there is no “too much”.  The maximum amount of powder you would want to add is 1% of 100X

Mark…in my latest creation…I am using Aloe 100X at 1% of added water.  I did this so I could list by 1st ingredient as Aloe Juice instead of water.  If one were to cut the rate below 1% (of water)…can one still list the water as Aloe Juice…or do you lose that right…below 1%?

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MarkBroussard said:

Yes, all you have to do is use a bit of lactic or citric acid to drop the pH a bit.  I always adjust to this pH range unless there is a main ingredient incompatability that requires a higher or lower pH.

Thank You.  I keep citric acid on hand for another lotion I have that suffers oxidation issues.   

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Belassi said:

Air freight?

No….cheapest available.  
But even when sent ‘ground’…the last leg is almost always by air.  

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MarkBroussard said:

@Spadirect:

The general pH range for human skin is 4.8 - 5.3 or so.  If you want to develop a “pH balanced” product, then formulate in this range.  It’s alway a bit better to have your products on the lower end of the range since the acid mantle recovers more quickly from an acidic pH disruption than a basic pH disruption when a skin care product is applied.

Mark…. If you created a lotion that naturally hit 5.5….would you take the extra effort to lower it into that 4.8 to 5.3?

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Speaking of Xanthan gum….just curious, I am seeing complaints about it, and wonder at what levels these issues occur.  I use at either .2% and one formula at .3%.  I also only use the soft version.
Where do people start to notice negative effects?  (I have never noticed a negative effect.)  I incorporate into water phase with high shear before I even begin to heat the phase.

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helenhelen said:

Thanks for the tip. I tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba and it made my formulation less moisturising. But maybe I made the mistake of treating it as an “oil” instead of as a humectant. I replaced some oil with it, but maybe I should have replaced some glycerin instead.

I also wasn’t keen on the jojoba smell. It comes out when a product has no added fragrance. I liked the cushion and smoothing of another FloraTech product - Floraesters 20, but again, the jojoba smell came out too much.

As always…. ingredients will react differently with different formulas.  I am overkill on humectants in my formula.
I did not notice any smell, in fact I considered the K-20…ordorless?

I use unrefined cupuacu butter in the formula, and that is the only scent that carries through.

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helenhelen said:

Pharma said:

helenhelen said:

….
I wondered if it’s the long chain length of behenyl alcohol that makes it so drying on me. Perhaps it adheres too well to the oils in my skin and thus rinses them off too much when I wash my hands…

It’s the higher melting point which turns it waxy and hence the drier feeling compared to something which is malleable at skin temperature.

Personally, I like the powdery/silky afterfeel of cetyl palmitate more than the ‘oilier’ touch of cetyl alcohol. Maybe I should give behenyl alcohol a try?

Could this preference be a gender thing (we’re 2:2 and it coincides with gender)? 🙂

 Whereas I need to feel a protective, emollient (but not slick) layer on my skin at all times otherwise I can’t stop thinking about all the moisture that is evaporating off and my skin shrivelling as every minute goes by.

… If you want that…have your tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba.  It does a fabulous job of that… Took my product to a whole new level.  (Don’t think it will work in cold formulations, as it does not go into solution before water phase hits 140F.  Premix with equal parts glycerin.)  I use 2% and 2%.  It also gives some level of wash-off protection at the 2% rate.  It wasn’t till I added that…that I could still feel the effect of the lotion I put on before bed….the next morning.  Hehehe…..you’ll definitely sell less lotion.   (Because reapplication intervals are greatly lengthened.)

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Just personal preference…hehehe… The world would only need one lotion….if we all liked the same thing.  

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I really struggled through this topic for a while…and Pharma really helped me through it.  If you have cetyl esters on hand, try your formula with a little of that as well…. I discovered (MY) sweet spot was 2 parts cetyl esters to 1.2 parts cetyl Alcohol.  This gave me the thickening I needed for the 165 emulsifier, and the feel I wanted.  

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I use it at 2%.  And yes…it brings some additional things to the table other than just humectancy.  Not all humectants work the same way… so there is something to be said for creating a synergy.
You did not state your goal in including it.  That would help.

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letsalcido said:

 

Long story short, the best cure is prevention. Stay safe, and keep away from riot control.

I second that….Just don’t riot.

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I agree!  Cetyl Esters (in my opinion) also feels better and drier than Cetyl A.  MM is also a choice…for dry and powdery.

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africanbug said:

Graillotion said:

@Graillotion

the Bamix pro comes with this head as well. it can handle up to 4 minutes of continuous use then it gets hot..

And….that is the head you like?

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Pharma said:

 the perfect moment to incorporate fragrances.

If I am adding fragrance to a lotion….late in cool down, and the emulsion does not like high shear….late in the cool down….is simple stirring…good enough to incorporate a fragrance oil?

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Pharma said:

 With many (but not quite all) creams it’s advantageous to homogenise again once cooled down,

Just curious….doe it matter which emulsifier you use?  I thought I had read something about the lamellar types did not like high speed homogenization….late in the cool down phase?  Something about destroying the structure?  Just trying to learn…is that the (but not quite all) exception?

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ggpetrov said:

Graillotion said:

ggpetrov said:

My “stirrer” is actually a plain kitchen mixer by Bosch. 

Yes….that is my plan B….
Hehehe…..but I had in my mind….that I could find a reasonably priced unit….that did both steps…. Homogenize…and stir.

I have a 6.5 Qt. Kitchenaide, and was just going to buy the paddle with the (bowl) scraper.

Sounds like an opportunity for an enterprising individual! :smiley: 

If you take a look at the article you will understand that the paddle mixer and the homogenizer are different things. They are not equal, but as the author of the article said - the paddle stirrer is “must have devise” and more universal, and the homogenizer is a kind of lux.

You can check this device https://www.carlroth.com/com/en/units/agitators-rotilabo-speed/p/n372.1 It’s much cheaper than Dynamix.

Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuwIhHa7yaU&feature=youtu.be

You can see the comparison between Kai Blendia and Dynamix by the same author.

Hehehe…..I watched that video before….that shows how serious I am about this….hehehehe….her voice drives me nuts…in about 8 seconds!   Hehehe….and Kai is not available any longer….so Dynamic it will be.  Just waiting on a quote for the attachment.
And yes…I am keenly aware of the difference between a stirrer and homogenizer.  

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Pharma said:

It catches oxygen which isn’t obvious although it’s an antioxidant. Unlike phenolics such as tocopherol, it also reacts with oxygen to create water whereas phenolics only neutralise reactive products formed when oxygen reacts with ‘stuff’ such as unsaturated fatty acids. Thiosulfate and bisulfides do the same, they react with oxygen and not just degraded stuff.

So do I understand you correctly…..to add ascorbic acid, or ascorbyl palmitate, as well as using one of the sulfites/sulfates….hehehe…I didn’t know if the have 3 or 4 O2 atoms.  

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Pharma said:

You’ll have to try it. Sometimes it’s equal, sometimes better (regarding antioxidation).

Smoke ring? You mean just at the top edge where product/air/jar meet?

A pound of that stuff…cost like $3….hehehe….so I can afford to try it!  
I should have clarified…. I am putting it through my torture test….clear bottle, only filled 2/3, in a warm sunny window….opening the bottle once a week to allow fresh O2 in…etc… (what I call the torture test) I was trying to see if I could make it bulletproof…hehehe.   NOPE!
When it goes to market…it will be in a colored bottle…with a pump.  I am just trying to make it crazy good….to begin with.

The smoke ring….is a off colored ring…that appears just below the surface of the lotion…somewhere between a soft orange, and soft tan.  Might only be visible at this stage….to someone looking for it.  

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Pharma said:

You’ll have to try it out. Thiosulfate, metabisulfite and sulfite aren’t expensive and you could try all three to see A: how much each really requires, B: which one has the lowest overall cost, and C: which, at it’s optimal concentration, does show the least effect on the product. Even if all are similar, they aren’t identical. And if you were to feel experimental, there’s not just sodium salts but also potassium and ammonium salts of all three available .

It would be advised to stay below 0.5%. We don’t know how much vanillin really degrades because it colours quite well. At 3% vanillin, 0.5% should be way more than enough. Hence, I’d start at ~0.05%.

Further things regarding stability:

Check pH: Vanillin is more stable under slightly acidic conditions.

The Sodium Metabisulfite…definitely helped, but did not solve the issue.  pH is running 5.5….so good.  I am getting a little brown smoke ring in the lotion….in as little as a week….but then it doesn’t seem to progress much.  I am using the meta at .3%

Should I just try the Thiosulfate instead….or try and tweak something.

I think the industry is using Thiosulfate….HOWEVER…. I think they choose that one…because they can hide it under the ‘Fragrance’ label…and don’t have to disclose it….  Metabisulfite is not on the list of ingredients I can hide….under ‘fragrance’.   

Do you have any additional thoughts….on how to get that ‘smoke ring’ out of my Vanillin lotion….hehehehe.

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Pharma said:

BTW if you were to use a dark airless dispenser, a pinch of ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate should also do the trick because you worst enemy or the real problem is oxygen and sunlight (UV). A pH above 6 simply speeds up the reaction and amines are probably not present in your product.

Can you explain to me…what the purpose/function of the ascorbic acid, or ascorbyl palmitate will do?
Thank You.

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At this point, I am really leaning towards the Dynamic, and probably springing for the rotor stator head…. although I might buy them in stages…and see how I get along without the expensive attachment first.   I like to do things to the best of my knowledge and ability, and it seems that the Dynamic is a pretty balance approach, when weighing end product (stability and quality) vs initial cost.

Anyone got a better one (that I can buy in the US) …. or should I spring for the Dynamic?

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Pharma said:

letsalcido said:

…plus you can lower the RPM and stir for a long time during cool down with an overhead stirrer.

Good point! A stick blender tends to get too warm too quickly. Most can’t even handle 1-2 minutes of high viscosity mixing.

Regarding closed shrouds, what do you think of these two products?

Steba MX21 or Gastroback Design Pro E

A cursory perusal of the US internet….and Gastroback is not sold here.  Looks like a nice one.  Looks like Steba is also not sold here.  

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Pharma said:

 what do you think of these two products?

Steba MX21 or Gastroback Design Pro E

Hey Pharma…..what would be your preferred blade for emulsification on the Steba?
This one?

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ggpetrov said:

My “stirrer” is actually a plain kitchen mixer by Bosch. 

Yes….that is my plan B….
Hehehe…..but I had in my mind….that I could find a reasonably priced unit….that did both steps…. Homogenize…and stir.

I have a 6.5 Qt. Kitchenaide, and was just going to buy the paddle with the (bowl) scraper.

Sounds like an opportunity for an enterprising individual! :smiley: