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Belassi said:

@Graillotion: Overkill. You mentioned batch sizes of 4L. Frankly, a stick blender of the right type is good enough to make stable emulsions using that combo you mention. The key is to buy a stick blender with a rotor that has blade tips close to the shroud. By close I mean < 1mm. This creates high shear and at the RPMs a stick blender runs at, you can emulsify 4L of emulsion in minutes.
After emulsifying the blender should be discontinued and propellor or paddle mixing used during the cool-down phase.

Are you aware of one…that meets that criteria?  Especially between the Dynamic and the Bamix?

Yes I am aware that stick blenders are sufficient, as that is what I have used for my operation the past year, which involved moving a reasonable amount of product.  But as I prepare to add two new products…I thought about cautiously moving up a level in my equipment….both quality, and slightly in capacity.

My initial product used E-wax as the emulsifier, and as I progressed to different emulsifiers, I felt like they might be more sensitive to equipment being used.

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ggpetrov said:

 You have to switch to propeller mixer after the homogenization, and then it can remove the air.

Can you post a picture of your stirrer?

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This is the set-up I dreamed about…  

https://www.misceo-cosmetics.com/gb/emulsifier-homogenizer/47-misceo-250f.html

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https://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=41675

This is the one they show for emulsifying, but sounds like this was not your top choice?

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Margaret2 said:

I went through this issue too until I settled on the proper attachment for my stick blender by doing the above, and noticing which bladed yielded a NON-FLUFFY lotion (I only use what’s known as the standard cutting blade) AND the proper stick blender (A minipro by Dynamic. Made in France). 

After I figured out which blade to use, 

I am looking to buy either the Dynamic, or a Bamix… Can you show me what the blade looks like that worked well for you?

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Don’t think for a moment, that I was not scouring the gas chromatography and mass spectrometry analysis charts on the citrus EO’s I was looking to add…and seeing which had the highest levels of Nootkatone, and it’s precursors!  I am always looking to kill two birds with one stone.

When I tried to formulate a fragrance with EO’s, I was unsuccessful.  When I let repellency drive the formula, I ended up with something wonderful…hence part of the frustration!  

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letsalcido said:

@Graillotion my first impression is that there is a “small” set of compounds that repel mosquitos and it’s possible that such compounds cause all those EO you own to have similar smells (close levels in the pyramid), like citronella and lemongrass which are commonly used mosquito repellents they have similar smells probably resulting from their overlapping compounds (geraniol, geranyl acetate, contronellal, limonene…).

I think I was not clear….My mosquito lotion is heavenly….in fact I have shared samples with my vendors, and now risk bodily harm when they see me, and I do not have a finished product.
My unhappiness with fragrances….had to do with my regular (non-mosquito) hand and/or body lotion.
However…you are spot on…..in that many of the EO’s thought to repel….share a component in common that is doing the work.  I am a anal perfectionist….so I have spent countless hours looking at the guts of the EO’s I use…and have been careful to try and reduce redundancy in what I think is the active in each EO.  I read something interesting the other day….and in summary it said…plants that are able to repel insect invaders….typically do so with several compounds at low levels… vs …. one compound at a high level.  In other words… a synergy of compounds works better than just one strong compound (in the context of natural repellency).

The real challenge in that project…was finding the right fixative/s.  The traditional fragrance fixatives…were essentially worthless, so had to work slightly outside the box.  (Hehehe….and don’t even get me started of getting rid of the oxidation when including high amounts of Vanillin.)

Thank You for your thoughts.

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letsalcido said:

Are you looking to make your own fragrance or purchase finished fragrances?

Well….a little of each…hehehe.  I have about a dozen EO’s…all of which were selected of their perceived ability to repel mosquitos.  With those 12….I have not really been able to create an amazing combo…that being said…. Lavender EO is one of my better selling fragrances.  However, the finished mosquito lotion, with those 12 EO’s plus Vanillin, has people going crazy (in a good way).
I just placed an order with NDA…ordering some EO’s….possibly not known for repelling mosquitos…that I will experiment with…either by themselves, or in combination.  So maybe I can make something with those…as I will add some citrus type scents, and some herbals.  (Thank you for the link).

But Mainly….I was buying fragrances…and not having much luck.

Hey….you did not enter the ‘just for fun’ category….of what are some of your favorite scents.  

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Anyone heard of any conferences….or trade shows…that will actually occur this year?  

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Agate said:

@ngarayeva001 Do you know of a supplier that sells the vegetable-oil-like fractionated coconut oil? I’ve been wanting to try it for a while, but haven’t been able to find a supplier.

What country do you live in?

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Pharma said:

Watch the pendulum, watch the pendulum… you fall asleep & do what I say: Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. Try 2% C ester with 1% C alcohol. :smiley:

Love that you can have a sense of humor when working with the ignorant.  😉 
Well…today I will play with my C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, in the mosquito formula…hehehe… So tomorrow I will work on the premium lotion, and try that combo.
I guess I am in no rush….since I can not buy a PET lotion bottle…to save me life.  

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Pharma said:

Right, cetyl alcohol is more effective in this regard and I’d also start with replacing 4% cetyl esters with 2 % C esters and 1% C alcohol. But regarding oil gelling and, in my experience or rather my personal preference, skin feel and that’s why I use 1% cetyl alcohol for 0.5% cetyl palmitate or vice versa… Try it out! If you have glyceryl stearate on your shelf, you could give that also a trial.

So you would say….try 2% C Alcohol and 1% C Ester?  In other words using C Alcohol at a 2 to 1 rate with C Esters?

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Pharma said:

Sounds like you’d be better off with version B then .

Add locust bean gum aka carob, guar gum, or tara gum. These three show synergism with xanthan gum. Hardness/stiffness/viscosity of a xanthan gum blend decreases in the following order LBG>guar>tara whilst smoothness/softness/slip increases. Typical ratios are 1:1 - 1:2.

Someone here on board said that mixing xanthan with sclerotium gum (1:1 - 1:4) reduces soaping/whitening sometimes seen with pure xanthan.

So you are saying…don’t bother with blending C esters and C alcohol?  Just go for Plan B?

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ngarayeva001 said:

Well, I guess it’s an irrelevant point for commercial-scale suppliers. C/C triglycerides sold on the DIY market vary significantly. 

Couldn’t agree more!!!!!!!!!!!
So today…I took all my oils…maybe 14 of them…..made a grid on my arm….and observed absorption rates.  One of the worst….was from my bottle of CCT…..which puzzled me no end!  I had been buying it from all over, so wasn’t sure what was in my bottle….so I opened a new bottle from a reputable seller…and immediately got the result one would expect from CCT.  Lesson learned!!!

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ngarayeva001 said:

 Dimethicone, some sort of polymeric emulsifier (Sepinov EMT 10, Aristoflex AVC, Sepigel 305 etc) for stability and improved texture. This is your bulletproof formula of success. Add a good preservation system and you have a minimalistic yet decent product.
 you can add silicone elastomers and more than one polymeric emulsifier for even more fancy feel. 

My greatest weakness as a amateur formulator….I am addicted to label appeal.   Therefore trying to keep the synthetics to a minimum….and the hard to pronounce things…

I sell in Hawaii….where more natural….is a good thing… almost a religion.  

So If I can create a sound emulsion, with the fewest possible ingredients….with some of my other pet peeves…and keep a tidy label….I am happy guy.

I have been doing this just long enough….. that I have already discovered….a beautiful label, and story…. make the product sell.  

I truly appreciate your comments.

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Pharma said:

Looking at the facts I know about your product 

A: Change emulsifier which changes your emulsion type. A hard decision at a late stage of development.

C: Create a lamellar network which is easy because emulsifier 165 responds well to that. However, cetyl esters alone might not suffice because of the very large hydrophilic groups of 165. You will have to add cetyl alcohol or stearic acid to make it work (it’s just a matter of how much you add),

Questions?

Regarding emulsifier….when it was down to two…. It was Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate, and a Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate type.  I chose the 165, because I thought I could use it across 3 products…. including a mosquito formula with lots of fun and difficult ingredients.
The 165 also whitened the final products better than the Lactylate types, and even seemed to retard oxidation in the mosquito formula?  And I thought that 165 was the easiest to work with, and might be the most forgiving?  And last but not least….the 165 seemed to ‘soap’ less!  (but I never gave the lactylate a shot with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.

So in choosing the 165….I knew the challege would then be in the thickening.  Or should I say…thickening while avoiding soaping and losing sensories, all while trying not to use any silicones.  From the comments of Pharma, ngarayeva001, and ChemicalMatt, sounds like I need to blend my C Esters with C Alcohol.  I will say….I made the formula with exclusively C Esters and again with exclusively C Alcohol, and certainly preferred the final product that was made with the C Esters.  

In trying to achieve the viscosity…I have taken C Esters to 4%…. I think I will try a blend… maybe 2% C esters and 1% C Alcohol.  Or….would you recommend a different ratio?  Did I understand you ….that the fix might be as simple as that?

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chemicalmatt said:

When using stearates, oleates, lactylates, saponified acids, esters, just add cetyl alcohol @ 1- 2% to curb skin soaping. Dimethicone certainly helps too. Simethicone even better.

I tried making my formula with both cetyl esters, and cetyl alcohol, and hated the feel that C Alcohol gave (oily), and loved the feel that C esters gave.  I did seem to tame the beast with the Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables.  I am trying to make the formula ( emulsifier: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate) without stearic acid….and even at 4% C Esters….just a tad thin.  If I sub 1% C Alcohol for C Ester….Will it make it a little thicker…and reduce soaping even more…..(I am essentially at zero now.)
I think what I am asking is…. C Alcohol is more effective at thickening than C Esters….right?  (I would prefer to be at a total of 3%…..so would 2% C Ester and 1% C alcohol have at least as much thickening….as 4% C esters?)

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esthetician922 said:

@chemicalmatt what percentage of rosemary do you typically use?

I use .02%.  Make sure ROE…and not Rosemary Essential oil!

• INCI Rosmarinus officinalis Leaf Extract 
• Recommended Use Level: 0.03% - 0.5%  Or 200- 1000 ppm calculated on oil content
• Appearance: Brown viscous liquid
• Carnosic Acid Content: Typical 5 to 7% (5% minimum)

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I bought this one:

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/checker-plus-ph-tester-hi98100-plus-hanna-instruments/

After reading some of the comments on this site…and have been happy with it.  There is also a cheaper $29 version of it….on the same site.

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I do think…..’averaging + antioxidants’….is some kind of thing!  

I use a multi-oil blend (includes meadowfoam)….some of them sensitive… so when they arrive, I mix the blend together with ROE, Vitamin E, and then refrigerate.  Granted my product never gets old as it rotates quickly,  But I am always amazed by how nice my oils are in that format…..Not scientific, just an observation.

This makes production much easier…as I only have to measure one oil product.

Sidebar:  This is something that has surprised me…..I use one oil in particular…that is semi-solid at my room temp…(high elevation Hawaii)…  When included in this blend….and kept in the refrigerator….it is still fluid.  I thought it would separate and solidify!

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letsalcido said:

@Graillotion Since you’re not too far from the right consistency, you could just up the cetyl esters by 1% and Xanthan by another 0.4%, even a bit more of the Glyceryl (and) PEG-100 Stearate. Just upping any or all of these three should provide more thickness but different skin feels.

To  avoid the lotion feeling slimy due to too much Xanthan Gum, maybe upping cetyl esters and 165 would be the better choice.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I am already using the 165 @ 4%.  (Formula is basically 14% natural oils and 3% butters)  It is my understanding…. 165 does not do much thickening (like other emulsifiers….)  So I will make again today…with Cetyl Esters bumped….another percent.
Hehehe….I am already maxed on humectants….as I am using what I imagine to be a synergistic blend…  

Expecting some feedback from my Arizona testers…today.

Aloha.

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Pharma said:

Not much time, doggies need to do what doggies do… More tomorrow?

In short: Cupuacu is triglycerides = chemically reacted fatty acids whereas stearic acid is free acid. Both increase melting point but stearic acid tends to form more/better crystals which thicken the oil even better.

Beeswax? Gellant combo instead of pure xanthan? Different emulsifier… meh… maybe don’t change that. Try different shear force, droplet size matters, although… if it’s at the cost of stability… (I like … too, especially when in a hurry )

Thank you for your feedback!

I have been ALL the way around the block with different emulsifiers….and the 165 just seems to fit the bill….in everyway….and can be used in each of my 3 formulas + it makes the whitest product in my situations…with colored oils.

I suspected that the natural stearic…would NOT perform the same way as the purchased.  Thankyou for the scientific answer.

If I can’t get there with an extra percent of cetyl ester….I will explore a small amount of stearic….hehehe….How bad can it be?  But if I can get there without adding another ingredient to the INCI….all the better.

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Pharma said:

Good question, very good question! 

Sometime I regret the decisions of my youth….like the Business degree (all though it served me well)…instead of the Chemistry degree. As I reflect on life…all the things I learned well….were self taught/learned.  I tell young people….your degree only teaches you how to learn, what you learn is up to you!  All though I fear…schools no longer teach this method of question everything, and ask for proof.  I had some crazy hybrid education…mix of British/American/Korean…hehehe…  Seoul Foreign School.

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I am using Cetyl esters, and Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba, in the formula already.

The K-20…primarily for it’s occlusive function.

Thankyou for your advice.

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I realize that ‘averaging’ might sound good on paper….does it work from a scientific perspective?