Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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Do you live in the US?
Top US small scale suppliers (in my opinion):
Formulators sample shop…for me has the best shipping rate….for the next few weeks…any weight for $8.99. Huge as you ramp up. Prices are better when you start ordering less than the minimum.
LotionCrafters…. Good selection, and quickest turnaround time…usually ships in 1-2 days…at worst 3 days.
Make your Own.buzz … good prices and have some materials I could not find at others….definitely the slowest ship times. Best butter quality…as it all comes out of a Major International supplier from Denmark.
Nobleroots: Top tier ingredients…but limited in what they have as small pak. Super premium ingredients….ie: Not all macadamia nut oil is of the same quality…they use Floratech as their supplier of this…and that is over the top premium. Amazing customer service.
I’ll toss one more in….cuz they have good descriptions…and I get two ingredients here that I could not find elsewhere. ‘Ingredients to die for’. Definitely the worst ship times…so you have to anticipate your needs if using them.
Making Cosmetics…I did get something from them recently…good quality…but prices are typically not competitive.
Ebay and Amazon…..last place on earth you get ingredients. Went down that bunny trail…early on.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:
Why is it when you say this…I immediately think….they don’t know how to make a correct label? How many small brands have we seen….that just put the ingredients in the order they think is most appealing?
You know how little Vitamin E goes into a product…and it is ahead of the Behentrimonium Methosulfate? Argan oil is expensive…so probaly measured in drops. -
helenhelen said:Hi @Graillotion, I was looking into replacing some glycerin in a cream with less tacky humectants and this thread came up. I wondered what grief you were getting with the betaine in high humidity. Did you end up replacing it with glycerin in the end or did you stick with the betaine?
Also, did you ever find the betaine giving off a fishy smell? I saw this mentioned a few times from various people.
Thank you!
The issue I was having was…even with brief opening of the bag it is stored in, it is such an effective humectant, that it was gathering moisture. Keep in mind that I live on the wet side of Hawaii…so relative humidity essentially never drops below 90.
I did end up keeping the betaine, at a lower rate. Because I added Floratech’s K-20W Jojoba, that wants to be slurried in glycerin first, my hand was forced. I also use sodium lactate.
I have NEVER had any odor issues with the natural Betaine I am using….resembles table sugar. No negative odor…and let me tell you….if something were to smell fishy…. I would pick up on it. -
PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion I actually got a sample from Evonik
Ahh…ok. It just scares me…having an ingredient with only one supplier…. a recipe for trouble…down the road. I already have two other ingredients in that boat.
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I will see an Indie brand with 5 oils and 2 butters in their conditioner ingredients, but when I use it, it doesnt feel heavy or too thick.
Just a couple drops of each! As you know…once you get below the 1% line, you can list in any order you like…. so likely they are measured in drops….but appear through creative listing…as much higher.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Belassi I didnt know that about Olive oil…very interesting. Hmm then what to do with a gallon of herbal infused Olive oil? hahaha
Make salad dressing of course!
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helenhelen said:
There was also so much spray when she used the Dynamix (there was product jumping out of the beaker),
Here is one thing I have noticed with the Dynamic in the few batches I have made with it….. If you turn it on…at high speed….YUP…things want to jump out. However, if you start at low speed, and return to that same higher speed setting, it will not jump out. Therefore start slow, and build up speed. Since the Dynamic Mini-Pro has infinitely adjustable speed…this is easy to do.
I should get my roto-stator attachment this week…and will let you know. -
PeaceLoveNaturals said:
Glycerl Stearate Citrate
Where do you buy this? I had trouble finding it. Ended up buying it at Making cosmetics.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:Do you have an IG?
Sorry…what is IG?
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:I will look into natrasil
FYI…that is what LotionCrafters calls: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables
Many repackers sell it…under different names…If buying more than just a dab… Formulators sample shop has the best price (amongst the re-packers)…and right now… until they get their website updated…have the best shipping deal… ANY weight….$8.99…. Hehehe…you can imagine I (who live in Hawaii)….have been loading up!!! (10 KG of Isoamyl Laurate shipped to the middle of the pacific for $8.99… almost made it as cost effective as buying from the mfg…and paying $110.00 in shipping.)
FSS calls it: Fision EcoSil
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I have tried desperately to include castor in my products….it is YUK at even .5%. Always got kicked out of the formulas in the end.
If you are desperate to get the word ‘castor’ on your label…. see if you can make this ingredient fit: Cetyl Ricinoleate.
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Welcome.
You can use the search bar, and find many discussions on topics you may have questions on. -
If you ever saw the list of things that can be tossed under ‘fragrance’…it would blow your mind. 😉
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I’ll throw my 2 cents in…as a fellow beginner.
I found 230-240 gm batches were about as small of a batch that could be made, were the measuring errors were not exacerbated. I also found it impossible with the equipment I had on hand, to create a proper emulsion with less than that volume.
So yes…. I am probably somewhere near the 40th iteration of the lotion I am working on…and all my friends have lotion samples…
So I also use my samples as a testing bed for fragrances. With a 240 ml sample size, I can divide this into 3 portions after processing (before adding fragrance) and test 3 fragrances with one batch. Something I find very beneficial since I have come to realize…most customers are more scent sensitive than product quality sensitive. (Very sad) I am somewhere near 100 fragrance tests…and less than 5 that I really like.
So the long and the short of it is… testing, testing , testing… if you are serious about creating a really quality product, you will spend a couple hundred dollars in raw material, and yourfriends will begin to hide from you when they see you approaching with bottles in hand. 😉
Regarding cool down…since your oil phase is typically much smaller than your water phase….this is my system: I always start the water phase first, and begin to heat it, while I am measuring out the oil phase. Even so… the oil phase reaches temp much quicker than the water phase (and since you are American…I heat to upper 160’s F.) At that point (I use glass) I put the water phase in the microwave, and give it just enough of a blast to match the oil phase…for my sample sizes….around 20 seconds. Hit with the blender one more time….and mix. No time for any cooling. If you are having any solids in your oil phase….you are not heating it long/high enough. You did not say what wax/s or emulsifiers you were using, but they all have different melting points. -
PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion $300 total? Why wouldn’t you just opt for a decent overhead stirrer for that cost? Just curious so I can know what might be more beneficial over another.
I would have nothing to stir…if I could not first homogenize it.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion And would $300 be affordable for a homogenizer?
I am a perfectionist. Sometime logical solutions are pushed aside in the pursuit of the perfect solution. 😉
I am making 240 gram samples…and yes…if I am not careful it sucks air into the lotion via vortex. But I have been able to stir that out quite well.
I have been impressed with one of the attachments that came with it….(in the small batches) but felt (maybe wrong…maybe right) that when I scaled up to 4 liter batches….that I would want the roto stator type attachment.
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I discovered that….while do dabs on my arm….of all my oils…
I make a grid on my skin…and take a Q-tip….and dab the oils, and observe the absorption over the next 20-60 min.
So when the CCT scored bad…I had from 3 suppliers…I tested the 3 against each other…and was blown away. -
helenhelen said:Replacing caprylic/capric triglyceride,
Not sure how many places you tried getting your CCT from…but I found that the suppliers were selling incredibly different products…as CCT. From some places the CCT was one of the most oily non-absorbing items in my oil blend…and CCT bought from other places….performed as expected. If you are dissatisfied with your CCT…you might consider buying from a few other reputable sellers.
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. .
Have you been able to purchase these in small quantities (as ingredients) ?
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.I’ll have to look into daikon seed. I am planning to try hemisqualane tonight. I also have bamboo bioferment that has yet to be tried. I’ve collected quite a lot of weird ingredients now.. many unopened!
Good luck with your mosquito products. As someone who is super attractive to mosquitoes and also has “skeeter syndrome” (
), I’m always interested in new repellents or treatments. I haven’t yet found any “natural” products strong enough at repelling for me (I can literally be the only person in a group of 200 people that gets bitten), but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. They were my best option after DEET which is horrible stuff.Do you live in the US?
I took a novel, vs traditional approach to a non-DEET product. EO’s have been done a million times….no need to repeat what has already been done and failed. INNOVATE don’t repeat!
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion $300 total? Why wouldn’t you just opt for a decent overhead stirrer for that cost? Just curious so I can know what might be more beneficial over another.
Because I need a homogenizer, first and foremost.
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:Loving reading this chat! All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
Glad you’ve had success with eliminating the soaping entirely!
I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165. -
I just bought the Dynamic Mini Pro….And love my new French friend!
ORDER TOTAL: $151.16 Delivered to my door in Hawaii!
It does an amazing job….and I love the fact that It actually has a range down to 0 RPM…hehehe… It doubles as a stirrir for me….of course can not run it contiuously… but when I make my small 240 gm trial batches…it cools pretty quickly, so I will stir it about a minute…6-7 times during cool down. And a quick blast at the end…when I toss in the fragrance/EO’s.
I also sprung for the specialty roto /stator type emulsifing attachment (have not yet received it), which actually cost slightly more than the machine!?!? I look forward to that arriving next week from Canada.
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Loving reading this chat!
All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
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Thank you all.
Yes I was very aware that the INCI order only told me which was the primary and which was the secondary ingredient. But what I was asking, since most industry works on economies of scale….was it probable that all were the same?
Thank you.