Graillotion
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Welcome.
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If you ever saw the list of things that can be tossed under ‘fragrance’…it would blow your mind. 😉
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I’ll throw my 2 cents in…as a fellow beginner.
I found 230-240 gm batches were about as small of a batch that could be made, were the measuring errors were not exacerbated. I also found it impossible with the equipment I had on hand, to create a proper emulsion with less than that volume.
So yes…. I am probably somewhere near the 40th iteration of the lotion I am working on…and all my friends have lotion samples…
So I also use my samples as a testing bed for fragrances. With a 240 ml sample size, I can divide this into 3 portions after processing (before adding fragrance) and test 3 fragrances with one batch. Something I find very beneficial since I have come to realize…most customers are more scent sensitive than product quality sensitive. (Very sad) I am somewhere near 100 fragrance tests…and less than 5 that I really like.
So the long and the short of it is… testing, testing , testing… if you are serious about creating a really quality product, you will spend a couple hundred dollars in raw material, and yourfriends will begin to hide from you when they see you approaching with bottles in hand. 😉
Regarding cool down…since your oil phase is typically much smaller than your water phase….this is my system: I always start the water phase first, and begin to heat it, while I am measuring out the oil phase. Even so… the oil phase reaches temp much quicker than the water phase (and since you are American…I heat to upper 160’s F.) At that point (I use glass) I put the water phase in the microwave, and give it just enough of a blast to match the oil phase…for my sample sizes….around 20 seconds. Hit with the blender one more time….and mix. No time for any cooling. If you are having any solids in your oil phase….you are not heating it long/high enough. You did not say what wax/s or emulsifiers you were using, but they all have different melting points. -
PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion $300 total? Why wouldn’t you just opt for a decent overhead stirrer for that cost? Just curious so I can know what might be more beneficial over another.
I would have nothing to stir…if I could not first homogenize it.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion And would $300 be affordable for a homogenizer?
I am a perfectionist. Sometime logical solutions are pushed aside in the pursuit of the perfect solution. 😉
I am making 240 gram samples…and yes…if I am not careful it sucks air into the lotion via vortex. But I have been able to stir that out quite well.
I have been impressed with one of the attachments that came with it….(in the small batches) but felt (maybe wrong…maybe right) that when I scaled up to 4 liter batches….that I would want the roto stator type attachment.
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I discovered that….while do dabs on my arm….of all my oils…
I make a grid on my skin…and take a Q-tip….and dab the oils, and observe the absorption over the next 20-60 min.
So when the CCT scored bad…I had from 3 suppliers…I tested the 3 against each other…and was blown away. -
helenhelen said:Replacing caprylic/capric triglyceride,
Not sure how many places you tried getting your CCT from…but I found that the suppliers were selling incredibly different products…as CCT. From some places the CCT was one of the most oily non-absorbing items in my oil blend…and CCT bought from other places….performed as expected. If you are dissatisfied with your CCT…you might consider buying from a few other reputable sellers.
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. .
Have you been able to purchase these in small quantities (as ingredients) ?
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165.I’ll have to look into daikon seed. I am planning to try hemisqualane tonight. I also have bamboo bioferment that has yet to be tried. I’ve collected quite a lot of weird ingredients now.. many unopened!
Good luck with your mosquito products. As someone who is super attractive to mosquitoes and also has “skeeter syndrome” (
), I’m always interested in new repellents or treatments. I haven’t yet found any “natural” products strong enough at repelling for me (I can literally be the only person in a group of 200 people that gets bitten), but find IR3535 and Saltidin/Picaridin highly effective without being greasy or irritating. They were my best option after DEET which is horrible stuff.Do you live in the US?
I took a novel, vs traditional approach to a non-DEET product. EO’s have been done a million times….no need to repeat what has already been done and failed. INNOVATE don’t repeat!
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Graillotion $300 total? Why wouldn’t you just opt for a decent overhead stirrer for that cost? Just curious so I can know what might be more beneficial over another.
Because I need a homogenizer, first and foremost.
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:Loving reading this chat! All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
Glad you’ve had success with eliminating the soaping entirely!
I did so many things…hard to put my finger on what actually was the winning ingredient. But more than likely, a combination of several things. I also use some Daikon seed extract…as Caligirl mentioned early on in this thread.
I think that the emulsifier was pretty important as well. I ended up with a 165 type emulsifier. It was chosen for skin feel, and I was trying to kill 3 birds with one stone (one emulsifier for 3 products). The 165 did the best job at holding my mosquito lotion together + seemed the mosquito lotion oxidized less with the 165. -
I just bought the Dynamic Mini Pro….And love my new French friend!
ORDER TOTAL: $151.16 Delivered to my door in Hawaii!
It does an amazing job….and I love the fact that It actually has a range down to 0 RPM…hehehe… It doubles as a stirrir for me….of course can not run it contiuously… but when I make my small 240 gm trial batches…it cools pretty quickly, so I will stir it about a minute…6-7 times during cool down. And a quick blast at the end…when I toss in the fragrance/EO’s.
I also sprung for the specialty roto /stator type emulsifing attachment (have not yet received it), which actually cost slightly more than the machine!?!? I look forward to that arriving next week from Canada.
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Loving reading this chat!
All I know…is with a few tweaks I have eliminated the soaping, in my opinion, entirely. Basically in a nut shell… removing all (added) stearic, adding a little cetyl (see chemical Matt’s comment….up near the top.) And adding two slipperies at relatively high levels, the afore mentioned Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate (and) Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables, and my new favorite ingredient, Isoamyl Laurate (super spreader).
All this…and no ‘Cones’, but every bit the feeling of ‘Cones. The IL does the trick…at 6% inclusion! Not as cheap as ‘cones’….but with stimulus checks….who cares? :#That…and Pharma has been an amazing help! Thank You!
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Thank you all.
Yes I was very aware that the INCI order only told me which was the primary and which was the secondary ingredient. But what I was asking, since most industry works on economies of scale….was it probable that all were the same?
Thank you.
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MarkBroussard said:@Graillotion:
Now, if you are trying to get Organic Certification,
Nope not chasing that at all.
Thank you.
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MarkBroussard said:@MLJ:
Not at all … I commonly make surfactants with Aloe Vera Juice instead of water … there is no “too much”. The maximum amount of powder you would want to add is 1% of 100X
Mark…in my latest creation…I am using Aloe 100X at 1% of added water. I did this so I could list by 1st ingredient as Aloe Juice instead of water. If one were to cut the rate below 1% (of water)…can one still list the water as Aloe Juice…or do you lose that right…below 1%?
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MarkBroussard said:Yes, all you have to do is use a bit of lactic or citric acid to drop the pH a bit. I always adjust to this pH range unless there is a main ingredient incompatability that requires a higher or lower pH.
Thank You. I keep citric acid on hand for another lotion I have that suffers oxidation issues.
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Belassi said:Air freight?
No….cheapest available.
But even when sent ‘ground’…the last leg is almost always by air. -
MarkBroussard said:@Spadirect:
The general pH range for human skin is 4.8 - 5.3 or so. If you want to develop a “pH balanced” product, then formulate in this range. It’s alway a bit better to have your products on the lower end of the range since the acid mantle recovers more quickly from an acidic pH disruption than a basic pH disruption when a skin care product is applied.
Mark…. If you created a lotion that naturally hit 5.5….would you take the extra effort to lower it into that 4.8 to 5.3?
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Speaking of Xanthan gum….just curious, I am seeing complaints about it, and wonder at what levels these issues occur. I use at either .2% and one formula at .3%. I also only use the soft version.
Where do people start to notice negative effects? (I have never noticed a negative effect.) I incorporate into water phase with high shear before I even begin to heat the phase. -
helenhelen said:
Thanks for the tip. I tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba and it made my formulation less moisturising. But maybe I made the mistake of treating it as an “oil” instead of as a humectant. I replaced some oil with it, but maybe I should have replaced some glycerin instead.
I also wasn’t keen on the jojoba smell. It comes out when a product has no added fragrance. I liked the cushion and smoothing of another FloraTech product - Floraesters 20, but again, the jojoba smell came out too much.
As always…. ingredients will react differently with different formulas. I am overkill on humectants in my formula.
I did not notice any smell, in fact I considered the K-20…ordorless?I use unrefined cupuacu butter in the formula, and that is the only scent that carries through.
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helenhelen said:Pharma said:helenhelen said:….
I wondered if it’s the long chain length of behenyl alcohol that makes it so drying on me. Perhaps it adheres too well to the oils in my skin and thus rinses them off too much when I wash my hands…It’s the higher melting point which turns it waxy and hence the drier feeling compared to something which is malleable at skin temperature.Personally, I like the powdery/silky afterfeel of cetyl palmitate more than the ‘oilier’ touch of cetyl alcohol. Maybe I should give behenyl alcohol a try?Could this preference be a gender thing (we’re 2:2 and it coincides with gender)? 🙂Whereas I need to feel a protective, emollient (but not slick) layer on my skin at all times otherwise I can’t stop thinking about all the moisture that is evaporating off and my skin shrivelling as every minute goes by.
… If you want that…have your tried FloraTech’s Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba. It does a fabulous job of that… Took my product to a whole new level. (Don’t think it will work in cold formulations, as it does not go into solution before water phase hits 140F. Premix with equal parts glycerin.) I use 2% and 2%. It also gives some level of wash-off protection at the 2% rate. It wasn’t till I added that…that I could still feel the effect of the lotion I put on before bed….the next morning. Hehehe…..you’ll definitely sell less lotion.
(Because reapplication intervals are greatly lengthened.) -
Just personal preference…hehehe… The world would only need one lotion….if we all liked the same thing.
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I really struggled through this topic for a while…and Pharma really helped me through it. If you have cetyl esters on hand, try your formula with a little of that as well…. I discovered (MY) sweet spot was 2 parts cetyl esters to 1.2 parts cetyl Alcohol. This gave me the thickening I needed for the 165 emulsifier, and the feel I wanted.
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I use it at 2%. And yes…it brings some additional things to the table other than just humectancy. Not all humectants work the same way… so there is something to be said for creating a synergy.
You did not state your goal in including it. That would help.