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Wow….Just wow…that 1% swap-out was dramatic.  (sepi-305 for Aristoflex and carbomer)

I will evaluate for the next couple of days.

I did a couple other tweaks while I was at it.  Took the Softisan out…as ‘neat’ is seemed to be a little guilty.  I also added back the .5% stearic acid…which for some strange reason…seems to enhance the package.

I am only using 1% cyclomethicone….will increasing this help to minimize ‘finger printing’?

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MarkBroussard said:

Yes, correct.  Cetearyl Alcohol + 165 + Sepigel 305 would be the correct combination

You have said cetearyl twice…. Is there something there?  Can I use cetyl esters and behenyl?

Got a batch with some Sepi 305 in stir-down now…  

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MarkBroussard said:

No, not just Sepigel as the exclusive emulsifier … Use the same combination as L’Occitaine …. Glyceryl Stearate SE (and) PEG100 Stearate + Cetearyl Alcohol + Sepigel 305.  Unless you have an issue using PEG100 Stearate.

No…after a brief straying away….I am back to using 165 + a Montanov + Aristoflex and carbomer.

I suppose the sepigel would replace the last two?  (Which were there for textural purposes.)

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Perry said:

Can you explain what you mean by fingerprinting?  Are you referring to leaving oily prints on whatever surface you touch (e.g. phone screen)?

Yes.  Leaving very definitive prints…when touching any type of glass surface….car steering wheel….etc.

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion:

Try making one version with Sepigel and a second version without … see if there is any difference.

Just including Sepigel….or using Sepigel as the exclusive emulsifier?

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When I first started out…I purchased Sepigel 305…. made a few less than stellar experiments….and never touched it again.

Am I missing out?

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MarkBroussard said:

I think they probably added in a bit of Antifingerprintate, but just did not put it on the label … or, their marketing department just made it up.

Ahh…I was wondering what that secret ingredient was called. 

I’ll search unicornexpress right away! I think it ships from Narnia or Absurdistan!

BTW…I meant…ingredients they did not use, that would aid in the endeavor.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Graillotion said:

Emulsify your product with a whisk.  

Well if your product is relying  on sepigel 305 as the only emulsifier you can even emulsify it with a fork ????

The whisk people…have more than likely never heard of Sepi 305.  

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jemolian said:

Speaking about cooking, this kills me

Comments from the natural FB groups always does, so…

All that is missing is…..Bake at 350 for 25 minutes!

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Emulsify your product with a whisk.  :#

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Pattsi said:

Sepimat series would have a superior feeling but if you only want to kill gloss and talc isn’t ideal name on the label, modified starch powder would be more cost effective in hand cream. 

@Graillotion Dimethicone Crosspolymer is really good, you have to try it maybe you might have your new aha.

I am starting to wonder…if I have not naturally backed into this texture…by making my own cocktail of:
Dimethicone, cyclomethicone, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, arrowroot, Aristoflex and Carbomer?     I call that my standard protocol for texturing. 

Feedback on textures are generally positive.

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Paprik said:

Not sure if this is gonna help, but I’m using Montanov 202 and it provides matte finish. Love this, coz of my combination skin. 

Other than that, I’m thinking about adding some type of powder to reduce the glossiness? 

[Looking forward to see other’s suggestions on this one ]

I use Mont 202 in one of my finalized products…and I like the feel it gives.  I am easily able to overwhelm its mattifying abilities…hehehe.

In the project I am working on…right now I am inclined to use Montanov L (with 165), but I am guessing Mont L…is not the culprit.  Waiting on USPS to deliver some samples of emulsifier combinations around (for feedback), and then will finalize the emulsifier.

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I see this quote on the KSG-016F:

Due to its 3-dimentional crosslinked structure, it is able to diffuse light and give a soft focus effect, to conceal skin imperfections providing a natural look.

Also on the INCI, I see Dimethicone….which I use, I also use a polymeric and carbomer in everthing….and I use Polymethylsilsesquioxane, which is supposed to have the ‘blurring’ effect.

Maybe I have just overwhelmed these minimizers?

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Pharma said:

Correct, replace fatty alcohols and/or monoglycerides and/or cetyl esters 1:1 with fatty acids if it’s for the same purpose (see also last phrase in this post). Like you’re used from substituting cetyl alcohol with a cetyl esters, the outcome is similar but still noticeably different and you’ll have to adjust. The 1:1 switch is a good starting point, not necessarily the final solution. Question is, do you replace all fatty alcohol or just part of it? The full replacement will probably give you the best idea on what exactly stearic acid does and feels like. If fear you’re going to hate it :smiley: .

If you want a softer version, use oleic acid or glyceryl monooleate instead or as a mix with stearic acid (I think such a mix feels nice and can be a useful replacement but is it really worth using that instead of staying with a good ol’ fatty alcohol?). Reason I mention it, such an ingredient (or blend) might be more in line with octyl palmitate, isoamyl laurate, and the feel of your entire product line. Stearic acid feels ‘hard’, ‘rough’, and ‘dry’ whilst oleic acid and glyceryl oleate feel ‘soft’, ‘smooth’ but also ‘oily’ (they’re on the other side of fatty alcohols, so to speak). They don’t have the vanishing effect of stearic acid but penetrate skin extremely well and deep (but rather slowly).

Ok….went to the bench…and sure enough…some Glyceryl Oleate sitting there….from a failed foray into body wash.   So tried it neat…and it has some interesting, albeit shiny aspects.  Yes it softens hands wonderfully…given enough time.  So granted I was applying it 100% neat… how would you take this into formulation??? Would .5% be too little?  2% too much?  I would appreciate some guidance.  I also decided to run it through incidecoder…and found VERY FEW hand creams using this ‘secret’ ingredient???  

So are you saying use this in lieu of stearic….or both?

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I think what he is saying….for many reasons we generally select a goal for the pH of a product.  So the only way to hit your goal…is to test pH (and then adjust).  A pH meter in the US can generally be purchased for around $20.

If you are the only one to use your products…probably OK…but if you allow others to use….you should know what you are handing out.

You did not list all your other ingredients….and some of them could possibly be pH sensitive as well.  (Or is this a purchased commercial cream…and you are just tossing in some ‘add-ins’?

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

As a benchmark for feel, try Elemis Skin Nourishing Body Cream https://uk.elemis.com/skin-nourishing-body-cream.html. It feels incredible going on. It glides evanescently over the skin as if you’re stroking a bit of silk fabric over the skin, then has a final perceptible squish/melt into the skin with literally zero drag at any point. Then the skin is left with a slightly powdery, silky and light protective feel. I don’t like any other Elemis body products… unlike their face creams, I think they all feel quite cheap and are not very moisturising. But this one uses the emulsifier, Biophilic H, which I think is what gives it that soft feel, along with the pentaerythrityl distearate (Cutina PES) wax. I’ve used Biophilic H before but I couldn’t get it to work for me.. the process is too long winded (there’s an extra step to hydrate the hydrogenated lecithin) and it’s very expensive as well. It does have a nice feel though.. it also contains palmitic acid as an ingredient which I always wondered was the secret to the feel. Also, I’ve noticed Elemis use Dicaprylyl Carbonate and Isononyl Isononanoate in all their face and body creams. As someone else already mentioned somewhere, Dicaprylyl Carbonate is worth getting hold of. It is cushioned, and leaves a slightly powdery but not “dry dry” finish, and I personally find it more moisturising than other light esters.

I was unable to find Dicaprylyl Carbonate / Cetiol CC at the re-packer level in the US.

I did make the final test combination with the three Montanov’s with 165…this time L…and after 20+ minutes…certainly had an enhanced feel over 202 and 68.  Samples went out to 4 testers…so we’ll see if they concur. 

Now I will play with butters and candelilla levels.

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Pattsi said:

Sorry for my curiosity and stupidity.

Why 165>Montanovs? What’s the advantage of this combo? Will this form a lamellar network?

Would this combo give a richer feel than 165 + linear emulsifier combo? 

Well….Richer is rarely what I chase….(except on the night cream I am working on).  So what I chase is two-fold….first impression texture…and long term moisturization….aka … lamellar network among other aspects.  (Not saying my products lack richness…that just comes to the party other ways…and do not rely entirely on the emulsifier.)

So for me….first impression texture amongst the products (emulsifiers) I have worked with…and of course this is just personal opinion….is most easily acquired with Mont. 202.  So you can tell my personal opinion leans towards lightness over richness.  I have naturally oily skin on my face.

So for me….the Montanov’s are not the easiest to formulate with.  Adding 165 makes everything effortless…so my objective is to maintain most of the characteristics I have grown fond of from the Montanovs…yet have the security that the 165 offers.

And yes…when I chase richness…I switch from M 202 to M 68.

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

helenhelen said:

Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.

Just curious….. I want to pair the Illipe…with another butter in this hand cream.  What in your opinion (and anyone else that wants to chime in)… would be a good pairing….at first I was thinking cocoa…but after doing some neat testing yesterday….figured they are too similar.

Kokum…comes to mind…just for the higher melting point…for a product (small hand cream for purse)…  that won’t be just sitting on the bathroom counter.  (Also seems to be a little bit the rage now.)

Cupuacu… also comes to mind…

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Very interesting on the Floratech Floraesters K-20W….as I use it in every formula…and have far less soaping than I deserve.  I had never seen it listed as an anti-soaper…but maybe that is why my formulas that have either no silicone…or my newer formulas which have only small amounts…don’t soap at all. 

Granted…I stay away from the classic soaping emulsifiers, and stearic acid (for the most part).

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helenhelen said:

Graillotion said:

BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.

Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?  

Arrgh…how to describe….
When I evaluate butters…there are so many aspects…from initial feel…to silkiness…greasiness…absorption….rub in texture…and shine…to how they feel 10-15 min after application…etc.   But let me try.

I have a high aversion to anything oily/greasy…and not quite as much….things that make me shiny. ::smile:

Note context:  All butters were sourced from ICSC (Denmark).  There is out of this world variability…between suppliers so this is actually an important note.  (Also to be noted… ICSC’s more refined butters are less likely to have variability, batch to batch.)

So of the butters (I have tried)….Murumuru is the most silky…and gives the most glide at time of application….so it has its place.

Illipe…does not have any type of neat feel upon application that will blow your mind.  In fact it was not until about 10 minutes after application…that I gave it a ‘wow’.  Ever felt that perfectly oiled piece of leather???  Well that is what the back of the hand that I applied the Illipe on felt like (after 10-15 min).  I could not stop touching it…hehehe…not something that usually happens.

So therefore…Illipe will not be helpful in getting that first impression rose.  But if you want a product that will bring them back…. Find a way to make that first impression another way…but keeps the lasting impression that Illipe can give.

By the way….if an ingredient wants to get my attention….it is the 15 min after application feel….that is the way to this man’s heart.  

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My M 202/165 hand cream…has Softisan, Illipe butter, and some acai sterols, candelilla wax and a kiss of cocoa butter….so they are bringing the richness to the table.  

BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.

…oh and lest I forget…Pharma had me cook down some Hawaiian Noni…and throw in there.   Plus the whole Cica thing.

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I have made two of the three possible combos @jemolian

165 (3%)+ M 68 (2%)
165 +  M 202 (same ratios)

Will make the third combo (L) soon.

Could definitely feel a difference….all though from a hand cream perspective… I think I actually preferred the M 202 version.  Simply because it is my presupposition that it should vanish quickly, and feel moisturized with out oils left on the surface (even though oils were used).

I come to cosmetics with a wonderful background…. Never used ANY of them before.  So I have no preconceived ideas….only what feels good and right to me.  So far…what I like…others have liked as well…hehehe.

Somehow I think that ‘Rich Touch’ might translate to… ‘residual feel of oils’?

They do use the word… Unctuous (with M68)….hehhee…not really in my everyday vocabulary….but looked it up….”Oily”.

There might be a touch more slip in the M68 (upon application)….but nothing I couldn’t create through other measures.

I think the M68 texture might be perfect on the slate for the Night Cream.

After 5 to 10 minutes, I think the 202 hand skin…still retained better slip and playtime, without any feel of a residual product…just amazingly soft skin on an old dude.  

Don’t get me wrong…they are both crazy good.  (As always…plenty of polymerics, silicones, carbomer and esters playing tricks in there.)

Thank you as always for accessing such wonderful illustrations.

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First I am clueless in the area of body wash.

But I am a consumer…that has tried a number of sulphate free ones.  @Belassi reviewed one by OGX…and I agree (and use it now)…. a great sulphate free body wash

Cosmetic Science Talk - Chemists Corner

Cosmetic Science Talk - Chemists Corner

My only point being….look at their INCI and see if you can clone it.

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RedCoast said:

Good idea with the fermented noni in there! I’m not sure if you are aware of the “Fermentoil” series, but I think it’s worth checking it out. I haven’t had any chance to formulate with it yet, because I only recently became aware of its existence. It would be worth checking it out, if only to give you more ideas.

Accidentally leaving out the candellia would benefit you, so you can compare/contrast the texture and emolliency. I’ve done it before and it worked well.

A cursory search…did not disclose a repacker for those Fermentoil products….do you know of any?

More and more…Pharma is making me brew my own concoctions…so already have two formulas to create with Locally sourced Hawaiian Noni juice, as reductions.

Well… if only I was so disciplined to only add back just the candellia.  I have way too many combos spinning in my head at the moment….so will add in the candellia…and tweak some alcohols….I may try and slip a little Softisan in there as well.  May even play with some 165…. in the emulsifier mix.

I have had a running problem with the Montanov’s not wanting to emulsify at combination temps…. they often will not emulsify until half way through cooling and stirring.  They like to emulsify….in the 40-50 C range????

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@vitalys

I have formulated with Eumulgin SG before (as a co-emulsifier)….and honestly hated what it did to texture in the facial cream I was working with, and I was using it at super low amounts.  Went back to GSC.