[Graillotion]

One more note….if you use more emulsifier than you actually need…you will often get a product that ‘soaps’.  It will also be more expensive than it needs to be…and possibly the feel will be diminished.   And the obvious….more thick than you want….(this does not hold true with all emulsifiers…as some do very little thickening.  Increased viscosity and emulsification…are not synonyms.)

[Graillotion]

PhilGeis said:

It is a scam - do not use this junk in any application..
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/govi/pharmaz/2007/00000062/00000008/art00007
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0514064

I don’t believe she is asking about the efficacy as a traditional preservative….we all know it does NOT perform well in that arena.  I believe she is asking about the performance as an oil preservative (antioxidant).

If it is effective in that area….it has a lighter color and different scent profile that the aforementioned items…and therefore might have an advantage in certain situations.

Any good as a oil preservative?

[Graillotion]

Graillotion said:

Here are some additional instructions that go with the emulsifier you chose:

• In cold processed formulations TEGO® Care LTP should be combined with polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in order to adjust the viscosity and the stability profile of the emulsions. For body lotions combinations of 0.1 – 0.3 % TEGO® Carbomer 141 or
TEGO® Carbomer 140 with Xanthan Gum proved to be most effective. For the preparation of sprayable emulsions, a combination of TEGO® Carbomer 141 and TEGO® Carbomer 341 ER (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylates Crosspolymer) proved to be most effective.

• In hot processed creams TEGO® Care LTP is preferably combined with consistency enhancers such as
TEGIN® M Pellets (Glyceryl Stearate) and TEGO® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol). Addition of small amounts of TEGO® Carbomer 134 (0.1 – 0.2 %) results in an improved freeze stability and in improved maintenance of the cream-like consistency at temperatures above 40°C.

One more learning opportunity… Here is a line from the re-packer trying to sell you this product:

• Easy-to-handle liquid emulsifier for making cold emulsions without the need of a co-emulsifier

The two paragraphs above….are from the mfg…stating very boldly, for anyone wanting to read it…. NOT STABLE ALL BY ITSELF. (my paraphrase)  (LMAO)

The less you believe in the product descriptions the re-packers use….the better formulator you will become.  Their only goal…is to sell you something (and sometimes…to sell you the fixes…once they have you on the hook).  Search any INCI on any reputable cream/lotion…and you will always see the stabilizers, and co-emulsifiers, no matter what emulsifier they started with.  Even the ‘bullet proof’ one I recommended at the beginning of the thread….we typically will support it.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

Graillotion said:

Aloe gel…is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

Look at the product you were using….Aloe juice was the first ingredient…then thickeners.

where I can learn how to make my own aloe gel

In formula…you do not thicken the individual components…you thicken the entire formula….so if you still chose to use aloe juice….it’s viscosity is irrelevant.  You thicken the FINISHED product to the viscosity you desire, with the ingredients you desire….ie… cetyl alcohol, stearic acid, any polymeric…(again super careful here…as most of those hate Aloe)…etc.  (not necessarily what I would choose…just what it sounds like you might have.)

Bottom line…you thicken the finished product…not the individual ingredients.  Aloe gel…is only pre-thickened aloe juice.

[Graillotion]

Here are some additional instructions that go with the emulsifier you chose:

• In cold processed formulations TEGO® Care LTP should be combined with polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in order to adjust the viscosity and the stability profile of the emulsions. For body lotions combinations of 0.1 – 0.3 % TEGO® Carbomer 141 or
TEGO® Carbomer 140 with Xanthan Gum proved to be most effective. For the preparation of sprayable emulsions, a combination of TEGO® Carbomer 141 and TEGO® Carbomer 341 ER (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylates Crosspolymer) proved to be most effective.

• In hot processed creams TEGO® Care LTP is preferably combined with consistency enhancers such as
TEGIN® M Pellets (Glyceryl Stearate) and TEGO® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol). Addition of small amounts of TEGO® Carbomer 134 (0.1 – 0.2 %) results in an improved freeze stability and in improved maintenance of the cream-like consistency at temperatures above 40°C.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

@ Graillotion- I did not know you could make your own aloe gel- will def try.

I thought only aloe juice caused issued- aloe gel never gave me problems before

As Pattsi said…the Tego care LTP you chose…is not a good choice for Aloe (he said Electrolytes….same, same).  Anytime you choose to use a claim ingredient like aloe…it will dictate what can emulsify it.

In this case…you did the double whammy…with adding a cationic solution and a strong electrolyte.

Lose the Aloe gel…You tried adding a finished formula…to your formula….usually not a good mix.

Even if you choose to use aloe powder….you might need to choose an emulsifier that plays well with electrolytes.

[Graillotion]

Aloe gel…is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

Look at the product you were using….Aloe juice was the first ingredient…then thickeners.

[Graillotion]

BTW….if you must formulate with aloe….MAKE your OWN!

https://www.makeyourown.buzz/aloe-vera-leaf-powder-100x/

Aloe brings numerous problems to formulating….find another claim ingredient.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

ngarayeva001 said:

As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?

I am using Purador’s organic
aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?

Ahh….starting to give us facts we can use ….
If it is the one I found on the net….it is loaded with crap…including cationic ingredients…which would cause some incompatabilities.

Make the formula without the Aloe gel…and I think all problems will …. POOF!

[Graillotion]

Don’t overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it….Heaven in a jar.
I think LC has if for a lot less.

But I think easier to make thinner products with L….as it does not thicken as well as 202.

[Graillotion]

Cinema said:

Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment

GSC is this:

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov’s.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own….they all say that…and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)

[Graillotion]

Regarding limits on EO’s….

Maybe take a look at this:

https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

Some EO’s are NOT well tolerated on skin.

[Graillotion]

Usually….too much viscosity means….too much emulsifier / thickeners.  In your case….probably too much emulsifier.

Have you looked at Montanov L or 202?  (I think meets the natural standard you are looking for.  Should be co-emulsified with GSC.)

[Graillotion]

As mentioned above….please describe the equipment used to make the emulsion.

Are you set on the above listed emulsifier?  There are some very proven ones available to you.  The one pasted below….is essentially bullet proof, and Widely used:

CreamMaker® BLEND-EMF-EMBL-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

And yes…the EO’s will scent the product at .5%, unless you were trying to make a mosquito repellent.

[Graillotion]

Well got around to making the hand cream yesterday with a pre-made HPC solution (fully hydrated).  Sadly after adding all water phase ingredients…I had something similar to egg-drop soup

So….since SepiGel 305 is working…I think I will just stick with it.  Thank you all for your input.

[Graillotion]

Thank you…I followed step 6…and seemed to get a product that did not have the floating layer for several hours.

So I produced my HPC slurry in advance….and it cooled to room temp… I will then use it as my water in the water phase…which means it will be heated a second time.  I assume there is no issue with this?

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution? 
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution? 

The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth.  So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.

……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Pharma can I ask for achieving what effect did you suggest silicone elastomer instead of HPC? 

He did not suggest the silicone elastomer over HPC, it was what I had on hand.  He simply said….it should work.

I will get HPC within a week, and will make the same formula with it.  If texturally their is no difference… I would suspect the HPC version would ultimately be more stable…a year from now.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@graillotion:

It’s a chelating agent … the chirality of the source molecule is of no consequence since it is not involved in a biological process where a specific enantiomer can be metabolized and another cannot.  For a chelating agent, it’s a distinction without a difference … it will bind heavy metals.

But does that difference….have any significance with how it will perform with a cationic emulsifier?  That was my area of concern.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

An issue with re-packers is that sometimes the create their own names … hence TSGD is the MakingCosmetics name for GLDA … yes, both synonyms … best to just search by INCI.  The product is universally referred to as GLDA by every other supplier that I know.

Both are using the INCI: Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate

Which is not overly helpful!

[Graillotion]

Just an update for those playing along at home:

Next version….worked like a charm.  (Working with VariSoft EQ 65 at 2% + 165 at 3%.)

Big differences were almost doubling the fatty alcohols (50/50 Cetyl and Behenyl blend), went from 2% to almost 4%.  Reducing GLDA to .1%….and I think the kicker was….adding the Sepigel 305 post emulsion…and after the emulsion dropped below 60C.

Hey what would we do without the genius of Pharma on this forum???    I truly appreciate you!

[Graillotion]

Ok…the fog might be starting to clear….GLDA is simply the ‘L’ form of TSGD!?

So essential wholesale does not state that their TSGD is the ‘L’ form.  However…I got my TSGD from Making cosmetics…and they DO state.. “High purity, versatile and readily biodegradable chelating agent based upon L-glutamic acid“

So I believe I have GLDA in hand already.  (But they also called it TSGD.)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

*** And more than likely they got it from the same place….one just used better descriptors than the other. 

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

Yes, you can get it from http://www.essentialwholesale.com

I checked there before I posted…..didn’t find it.
I checked there after you posted… didn’t find it.

Maybe I don’t have the competence to maneuver their site?

Or do they have some code name for it?

Is GLDA and TSGD (Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate)….synonyms?

[Graillotion]

So other than HPC….considering I am looking more or less for a texturizer…how would you compare HPC and Siligel (INCI: Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)?  @jemolian

[Graillotion]

jemolian said:

@Graillotion i’ve not tried HPC before, though do take a look at the viscosity that it can have because they might not reach what you might need unless you use a higher percentage. If comparing the specs on lotioncrafter, the viscosity at 1% for HPC vs HEC, HEC would be higher, 1500 - 3000 cps vs 3400-5000 cps. 

I am shooting for texture…not thickness….I can make viscosity elsewhere.

I like my products to have a gel hiding in the cream!  

Thank You….I did not notice that…(maybe cuz I was not thinking about it as a viscosity agent).  And now that you mention it….I already have plenty of viscosity…so maybe the HPC will be better for me!!!