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@Perry 

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MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

I would use a combination of CBD and CBG

I find it about impossible to find dosing for the cannabinoids (this of course is intentional), so any idea on dosing for a cream?  I am using 1% of CBD Isolate….I assume I will keep that the same, and just add some CBG.  Since it is a pricey ingredient (more than double the cost of CBD), what level would I have to include to hopefully create an effect?

Obviously inclusion rate hinges on potency….so let’s use this as an example:

Untitled (industrialhempfarms.com)

You formulate CBD products to a target load of CBD (or CBG) in milligrams per unit.  It looks like you’re making a cream with 1,000 mg CBD, which is a good strength for a pain management product.  It’s completely up to you on the strength.  You might do 1,000 mg CBD + 200 - 400 mg CBG, for instance.

Thank you for your helpful insights Mark.  In this scenario, as a pain cream formulator, I am very hamstrung by not suffering from any type of chronic pain, thereby eliminating myself as a test subject.  Do you have anyone in-house (literally and figuratively) that suffers pain that a cream like this might mitigate?  I am always looking for test subjects that can provide quality feedback.  If so, I would love to send you a sample.  You can PM me…with address.
This is not a half-a$$ formula….it is made with watchful oversight and input from someone I believe you respect, someone who’s PhD focused on phytochemistry and pharmacognosy.  

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MarkBroussard said:

Graillotion said:

MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

I would use a combination of CBD and CBG

I find it about impossible to find dosing for the cannabinoids (this of course is intentional), so any idea on dosing for a cream?  I am using 1% of CBD Isolate….I assume I will keep that the same, and just add some CBG.  Since it is a pricey ingredient (more than double the cost of CBD), what level would I have to include to hopefully create an effect?

Obviously inclusion rate hinges on potency….so let’s use this as an example:

Untitled (industrialhempfarms.com)

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Here is the comparison from my vendor:

CBD Distillate

CBD is put through a process of heating and cooling to produce CBD distillate, a much purer, cleaner and more potent form of the compound. CBD distillate typically contains about 90% CBD. While CBD distillate doesn’t contain as high a concentration of CBD as CBD isolate, it does retain many of the other therapeutic compounds in the cannabis plant, like terpenes, vitamins, waxes and antioxidants. Made using a process of chromatography, CBD distillate comes in liquid form.

CBD Isolate

Even more concentrated than CBD distillate is CBD isolate, containing 99% CBD. For people with allergies or other reactions to the terpenes, waves or other compounds in cannabis, CBD offers the cleanest form of the compound. Typically made through a process of CO2 extraction, CBD isolate comes in refined, white powder form that can be added to foods, beverages, topicals and tinctures alike

So if I understand that….the distillate with give me some of the secondary goodies?  @MarkBroussard

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MarkBroussard said:

@Grallotion:

Yes, I think a CBD extract of any type would be better than CBD isolate.  I’ve worked with both, and while I don’t believe the “entourage effect” has been proven to be true, using CBD isolate completely eliminates any possibility of synergistic effects between the various components of a CBD extract.  

Are you saying….the only drawback to the CBD isolate (vs CBD extract)…is the lack of secondary components?  (I can live with that.)  

Where I have been buying my CBD isolate…they also sell CBN, CBG, and CBC.  With pain in mind…if I were to blend one of these in…which would you choose?

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I have read about the entourage effect, and that is what I was referencing with the term….’extra goodies’   As I have to this point…essentially used marketing blurbs as my research, I would love some solid scientific links, pertaining to the entourage effect. @DrJekyll and @Microformulation.  I have a ultra healthy suspicion of suppliers, especially when they are not providing data.  Hence I had assumed that the entourage effect…even though very plausible sounding….was marketing hype…designed to market a product that was easier to produce without all the extra steps of refinement.

As I am still formulating this project, I am still open to play the field as far as CBD suppliers. @MarkBroussard is there a reasonable priced supplier of CBD Rosin in the US, that will sell it at super small amounts?  (Right now I am buying 10-25 grams of isolate at a time, while formulating.)  So you feel the Rosin is much better than the Isolate I have been using?

I am also trying to keep the product essentially THC free…even at the tester level, I have seen great concern in this regard.  Various testers have jobs or military careers they absolutely can not jeopardize.

I am ready to learn more factual info on the entourage effect…hopefully a THC free version of the entourage effect.

Aloha.

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Microformulation said:

For example, we wanted our CBD in Squalane (do your research on that), and can only get it in MCT.

Are you making just a CBD oil?  Or are you making an emulsion to deliver your CBD?

You must be referring to this kind of result?

I am working together with one of the chemist on this site to make a pain relief cream….and we use both (Squalane and CBD)… but the Squalane is only at 1%.  Do you think that is enough to enhance the delivery?

I am essentially making my own infusion, as I buy the CBD as an isolate.  Do you use the pure CBD…or the one with some extra goodies?

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raiyana said:

you might wanna add 2% niacinamide for claims.
https://doi.org/10.1080/14764170600717704

Are you saying that niacinamide reduces shine?

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With additional reading… I understand that in order to mattify….the silica needs to be within a certain micron range.  What would be the ideal range with regards to micron and mattifying?

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I suppose one concern would be….that if these two have fine enough grind…that they don’t become an abrasive.  

Does anyone know the comparison of particle size between Aerosil 200 and Greensil?

One last question…as one of the products I am considering experimenting with this in is cationic… I have had to deal with working around my normal gelling agents.  Silica is sometimes marketed as an oil gelling agent in the 5-10% range.  At the low rates I am considering, 1-2%….will this have any enhancement in creating a gel undertone to the cream?

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My theory has always been….the less shine you put into a formula…the less shine you have to work on getting rid of at the end of the formula… Simply meaning if I have two or three ingredients that can essentially do the same thing…I apply them neat…and choose the least shiny.  Then when tweaking the finished product…only minimal inputs are required for corrections.

As far as M 202 goes…I have read that it is supposed to make a more matte emulsion, but I have hundreds of samples that would disagree.  I love M 202…just sometimes the marketing blurbs are not always something you can stake your life on.  Maybe a more accurate description might read…does not add shine or gloss (it is very glossy in the jar…which I like…which also does not translate on how it will ultimately play out on the skin).  It is good for creating very lite weight products, and a big part of why I use it.

My progression as a formulator timeline looks something like this….

1) Starts with 165 cuz it is bulletproof.

2) Starts to think I am too big for my britches….so tries every  emulsifier known to man…. ULP and UPS beat a path to my rainforest door.

3)  Begin to realize how amazing and bullet proof 165 was.  

4)  Figure out how to blend 165 with some of the emulsifiers I found while chasing all those rabbits, into amazing but stable results.

5) Thank God I have a chemist buddy with the patience of Job, who can help me salvage (put together in a stable manner) any combination my mind can conjure.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Decision to buy a product is taken emotionally based of the first 10 seconds impression. I don’t think anyone will notice an effect after 2 hours.

Yes…I think smell and first impression are key.  But because of my personality….I still try to go the extra mile….and make it memorable…an hour or two down the road.

Cosmetic buyers are notorious for brand jumping… I would like to create something so memorable…that brand jumping would become heart wrenching.  

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monicakretschmers said:

Greensil from Greentech. It’s a sílica obtained from bamboo. 

Will any Silica do this?

I have some non-bamboo sourced silica from an experiment gone awry (aerosil 200).

What is a typical inclusion rate on this type of ingredient?

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Firstly…I take all my oils I want to include…and apply them neat….they simply have a huge range of shininess.  I like Meadowfoam…but it is pretty shiny…so sometimes I can’t use it depending on the application.

Some of the fatty alcohols are said to be more mattifying. 

Also some ingredients like Polymethylsilsesquioxane can help.

For my latest project…I think the addition of crosspolymers had the most profound influence on reducing some of the shine.

For me… Illipe is the least shiny of the butters I keep on hand.

Hope that helps.

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I have worked through this recently…..
It would help if you listed the INCI of said product.

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Pattsi said:

 

Since you have conditioner formula so I assume you have dimethicone 60,000 , you might want to try 350/60,000 - 1.8/0.2 and see if you like it or not, I like it.

I have never worked with D 60,000.  Are you saying that adding a dab (.02%) of this CST has some amazing feel/effect?

I only keep 350cst on hand.

But always open for some new powdered unicorn horn dust!  

 

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MarkBroussard said:

  

BTW: I personally cannot use Tresemme shampoo … it literally makes the skin on my hands peel.

What in that shampoo, do you attribute to this issue?

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As the formulator…I am impressed with jamming 10% natural oils and butters into a hand cream….that disappears without a trace, and soothes, moisturizes, and softens the skin.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that the customer….wants to ‘feel’ something???

(Meaning I am probably more impressed with B, but guessing consumers might want A.) 

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I typically formulate with dl Panthenol in the range of .4 to .5%.

I have been told I have very calming creations….

I always use Allantoin (at .5% of water phase….which is lower than .5% of total formula), and dl Panthenol at those very low rates.

Mark is absolutely right….Panthenol at higher levels….simply becomes sticky yuck….. and unlikely to create a benefit.

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A little confused with the terms ‘low viscosity’ and ‘cream’ in the same sentence….

But I make a delightful facial cream with Montanov 202 and GSC.

I always add a twist of Aristoflex and a sprig of Carbomer, but maybe that won’t fit your ‘natural’ definition.

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MarkBroussard said:

You missed a shout out to @chemicalmatt whose vast knowledge of the field is truly amazing.  

Agreed!!!  Matt has given me some VERY fundamental keys to making some products really work for me.  Triethyl Citrate forever will be on my bench from Matt.

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I am a poor resource for you…because I do not factor cost when I formulate… I only chase performance and texture.

First…. I am crazy for fast breaking, wet feeling products that dry quickly with a cooling sensation, and feel as close to weightless as possible.  Creams with a gel undertone.  I expect them to feel like products one might have tried that cost $200+.  So pentylene glycol brings an incredible ‘wet’ feel when added to a formula (more so than other glycols I have tried).  So automatically a ‘yes’ for me.  Compound this with other well known fast breaking components…and you can begin to imagine.  However, I also use Pentylene G as part of a larger preservative program, as jemolian mentioned.  I also use the afore mentioned 1,2-Hexanediol plus caprylyl glycol in everything I make.  I think pharma has an affinity for the glycols…and has really pushed me down that path (so I use use several in each project)…hehehe.

I think the point Jemolian makes about how humectants perform at different humidities…. is often overlooked.  I produce products in a rain forest…. So I need them to be comfortable here…as well as in a dry climate.  Based on feedback from personal and testers from around the globe, I have for the most part, hit the target I sought.  I don’t think that could have been achieved with a single humectant.  That being said….if you are selling into a single climate….than one could hypothetically test the humectants against the climate, and make a match.

I am not a huge fan/follower/believer in HA…but I use it in absolutely everything.  Partly for claim…and partly…when I take it out….I notice it.  I use a magical blend of wet and dry silicones….and I am suspecting a synergy in this area with HA.  The moisturizing aspects of some of my projects….are greater than the sum of the parts. 

I do not use BG or Propylene glycol…probably more for consumer perception than any other reason.  When I was evaluating PG against Propanediol… in my climate Propanediol clearly out performed it.  This again….results will vary with climate and other factors.  When I tested both BG and PG….they never really stood out in a formula….like Pentylene glycol…..that one will make you sit up and pay attention.  Sidebar…. lots of glycols…can cause issues in emulsions….so better be using something pretty stout with them.  I am typically starting with a core of 165, and flavoring it with a Montanov + GSC or a cationic (w/o GSC).

I guess my final point on humectants would be…. who cares…if you don’t support them with stellar barrier function.  They’re all short lived…if you don’t lock them in and down.

I break every project into the functional aspects….and build the supporting cast for each aspect, otherwise all is for naught.

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jemolian said:

Guess it’s never ending, I’m still learning as well 

????

Couldn’t agree more….It has been my life motto… Learn something new each day.

For what it is worth, I attribute 100% of what I have learned and created to this forum, and to several of the amazing chemist who inhabit it.  What I knew before arriving…basically had to be ‘unlearned’.  Granted I try and do some research before popping my questions…but there is so much conflicting information on line…that the only way to clarify it, is to have someone who has lived and breathed it, explain the ‘why’ of what I am experiencing.

Many cosmetic samples and Macadamia nuts have traveled from the shadows of Mauna Loa to the shadows of Uetliberg.  And to that amazing friend…I could not have done it without you….but you already know that!  Mahalo!

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I do not have the chemistry background to answer your question…but I will toss this out there.

Typically (not always) BG will be less sticky.  So some formulators will split the formula, as they feel things get too tacky with just glycerin.  However…as many of you know…I’ll buy the same ingredient from multiple suppliers …. just to compare.  I did this with BG (when I was using it….no long am)…. and when one of the repackers offered a non-petrol based version…I jumped all over it….and you guessed it….more gross than glycerin!

I use glycerin at low levels…but love to support it with propanediol, betaine, and my all time fav….pentylene glycol.  (I call that one…my secret weapon.)