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I suppose one concern would be….that if these two have fine enough grind…that they don’t become an abrasive.  

Does anyone know the comparison of particle size between Aerosil 200 and Greensil?

One last question…as one of the products I am considering experimenting with this in is cationic… I have had to deal with working around my normal gelling agents.  Silica is sometimes marketed as an oil gelling agent in the 5-10% range.  At the low rates I am considering, 1-2%….will this have any enhancement in creating a gel undertone to the cream?

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My theory has always been….the less shine you put into a formula…the less shine you have to work on getting rid of at the end of the formula… Simply meaning if I have two or three ingredients that can essentially do the same thing…I apply them neat…and choose the least shiny.  Then when tweaking the finished product…only minimal inputs are required for corrections.

As far as M 202 goes…I have read that it is supposed to make a more matte emulsion, but I have hundreds of samples that would disagree.  I love M 202…just sometimes the marketing blurbs are not always something you can stake your life on.  Maybe a more accurate description might read…does not add shine or gloss (it is very glossy in the jar…which I like…which also does not translate on how it will ultimately play out on the skin).  It is good for creating very lite weight products, and a big part of why I use it.

My progression as a formulator timeline looks something like this….

1) Starts with 165 cuz it is bulletproof.

2) Starts to think I am too big for my britches….so tries every  emulsifier known to man…. ULP and UPS beat a path to my rainforest door.

3)  Begin to realize how amazing and bullet proof 165 was.  

4)  Figure out how to blend 165 with some of the emulsifiers I found while chasing all those rabbits, into amazing but stable results.

5) Thank God I have a chemist buddy with the patience of Job, who can help me salvage (put together in a stable manner) any combination my mind can conjure.

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ngarayeva001 said:

Decision to buy a product is taken emotionally based of the first 10 seconds impression. I don’t think anyone will notice an effect after 2 hours.

Yes…I think smell and first impression are key.  But because of my personality….I still try to go the extra mile….and make it memorable…an hour or two down the road.

Cosmetic buyers are notorious for brand jumping… I would like to create something so memorable…that brand jumping would become heart wrenching.  

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monicakretschmers said:

Greensil from Greentech. It’s a sílica obtained from bamboo. 

Will any Silica do this?

I have some non-bamboo sourced silica from an experiment gone awry (aerosil 200).

What is a typical inclusion rate on this type of ingredient?

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Firstly…I take all my oils I want to include…and apply them neat….they simply have a huge range of shininess.  I like Meadowfoam…but it is pretty shiny…so sometimes I can’t use it depending on the application.

Some of the fatty alcohols are said to be more mattifying. 

Also some ingredients like Polymethylsilsesquioxane can help.

For my latest project…I think the addition of crosspolymers had the most profound influence on reducing some of the shine.

For me… Illipe is the least shiny of the butters I keep on hand.

Hope that helps.

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I have worked through this recently…..
It would help if you listed the INCI of said product.

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Pattsi said:

 

Since you have conditioner formula so I assume you have dimethicone 60,000 , you might want to try 350/60,000 - 1.8/0.2 and see if you like it or not, I like it.

I have never worked with D 60,000.  Are you saying that adding a dab (.02%) of this CST has some amazing feel/effect?

I only keep 350cst on hand.

But always open for some new powdered unicorn horn dust!  

 

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MarkBroussard said:

  

BTW: I personally cannot use Tresemme shampoo … it literally makes the skin on my hands peel.

What in that shampoo, do you attribute to this issue?

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As the formulator…I am impressed with jamming 10% natural oils and butters into a hand cream….that disappears without a trace, and soothes, moisturizes, and softens the skin.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that the customer….wants to ‘feel’ something???

(Meaning I am probably more impressed with B, but guessing consumers might want A.) 

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I typically formulate with dl Panthenol in the range of .4 to .5%.

I have been told I have very calming creations….

I always use Allantoin (at .5% of water phase….which is lower than .5% of total formula), and dl Panthenol at those very low rates.

Mark is absolutely right….Panthenol at higher levels….simply becomes sticky yuck….. and unlikely to create a benefit.

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A little confused with the terms ‘low viscosity’ and ‘cream’ in the same sentence….

But I make a delightful facial cream with Montanov 202 and GSC.

I always add a twist of Aristoflex and a sprig of Carbomer, but maybe that won’t fit your ‘natural’ definition.

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MarkBroussard said:

You missed a shout out to @chemicalmatt whose vast knowledge of the field is truly amazing.  

Agreed!!!  Matt has given me some VERY fundamental keys to making some products really work for me.  Triethyl Citrate forever will be on my bench from Matt.

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I am a poor resource for you…because I do not factor cost when I formulate… I only chase performance and texture.

First…. I am crazy for fast breaking, wet feeling products that dry quickly with a cooling sensation, and feel as close to weightless as possible.  Creams with a gel undertone.  I expect them to feel like products one might have tried that cost $200+.  So pentylene glycol brings an incredible ‘wet’ feel when added to a formula (more so than other glycols I have tried).  So automatically a ‘yes’ for me.  Compound this with other well known fast breaking components…and you can begin to imagine.  However, I also use Pentylene G as part of a larger preservative program, as jemolian mentioned.  I also use the afore mentioned 1,2-Hexanediol plus caprylyl glycol in everything I make.  I think pharma has an affinity for the glycols…and has really pushed me down that path (so I use use several in each project)…hehehe.

I think the point Jemolian makes about how humectants perform at different humidities…. is often overlooked.  I produce products in a rain forest…. So I need them to be comfortable here…as well as in a dry climate.  Based on feedback from personal and testers from around the globe, I have for the most part, hit the target I sought.  I don’t think that could have been achieved with a single humectant.  That being said….if you are selling into a single climate….than one could hypothetically test the humectants against the climate, and make a match.

I am not a huge fan/follower/believer in HA…but I use it in absolutely everything.  Partly for claim…and partly…when I take it out….I notice it.  I use a magical blend of wet and dry silicones….and I am suspecting a synergy in this area with HA.  The moisturizing aspects of some of my projects….are greater than the sum of the parts. 

I do not use BG or Propylene glycol…probably more for consumer perception than any other reason.  When I was evaluating PG against Propanediol… in my climate Propanediol clearly out performed it.  This again….results will vary with climate and other factors.  When I tested both BG and PG….they never really stood out in a formula….like Pentylene glycol…..that one will make you sit up and pay attention.  Sidebar…. lots of glycols…can cause issues in emulsions….so better be using something pretty stout with them.  I am typically starting with a core of 165, and flavoring it with a Montanov + GSC or a cationic (w/o GSC).

I guess my final point on humectants would be…. who cares…if you don’t support them with stellar barrier function.  They’re all short lived…if you don’t lock them in and down.

I break every project into the functional aspects….and build the supporting cast for each aspect, otherwise all is for naught.

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jemolian said:

Guess it’s never ending, I’m still learning as well 

????

Couldn’t agree more….It has been my life motto… Learn something new each day.

For what it is worth, I attribute 100% of what I have learned and created to this forum, and to several of the amazing chemist who inhabit it.  What I knew before arriving…basically had to be ‘unlearned’.  Granted I try and do some research before popping my questions…but there is so much conflicting information on line…that the only way to clarify it, is to have someone who has lived and breathed it, explain the ‘why’ of what I am experiencing.

Many cosmetic samples and Macadamia nuts have traveled from the shadows of Mauna Loa to the shadows of Uetliberg.  And to that amazing friend…I could not have done it without you….but you already know that!  Mahalo!

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I do not have the chemistry background to answer your question…but I will toss this out there.

Typically (not always) BG will be less sticky.  So some formulators will split the formula, as they feel things get too tacky with just glycerin.  However…as many of you know…I’ll buy the same ingredient from multiple suppliers …. just to compare.  I did this with BG (when I was using it….no long am)…. and when one of the repackers offered a non-petrol based version…I jumped all over it….and you guessed it….more gross than glycerin!

I use glycerin at low levels…but love to support it with propanediol, betaine, and my all time fav….pentylene glycol.  (I call that one…my secret weapon.)

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Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution? 
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution? 

The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth.  So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.

……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.

Thanks 
What did you add next and next untel cationic? 

I put the Varisoft EQ 65 in the oil phase, so the GLDA and Varisoft do not meet until emulsification.  

The formula is now working magically…I am on version  #16.

So Keep in mind…this formula is still primarily 165 @ 3%, and Varisoft EQ 65 at 2%.  

Since my GLDA is liquid, it is only 50% active…therefore at my inclusion rate of .1%…it is more like .05%.

Pharma suggested (and was right as usual) that SepiGel 305 would work in this scenario, (I believe) due to the lower rate of the Varisoft EQ 65….and the inclusion post emulsion.  The different anionic gelling agents have varying levels of how they will interact with cationics, and it was his belief that 305 was one of the better possible candidates, based on it’s constituents.

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Your open mind has been appreciated.  Sometime the newbies that float in…have been so indoctrinated from the mommy blogger sites….there is no helping them.

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abierose said:

Speaking of @Pharma, what are your thoughts on this topic?

If you want to see his thoughts….scroll through this thread.  

What to avoid when using cationic emulsifiers….. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

We have just recently dealt with this issue…and you have the end result….in hand!  

And….cosmetic companies are generally started by dreamers and marketers….and far more rarely….by chemist!    So always weigh the facts.

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Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%.  A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.

And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!

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tianaloveorganics said:

Perry said:

If you are making a “hair oil” which is meant to soften hair and make it more manageable or feel nicer, then 5% oil would certainly have an impact.

If you’re making a “hair growth oil” then neither 5% or 100% of any oil ingredient is going to work. Oils are not proven to make hair grow.

thank you so much for that I know minoxidil is the only proven thing is that it?? and so where can I purchase minoxidil to use in my product

Last time I checked, Minoxidil is a drug, not a cosmetic.

This is a completely different arena.  I think it was only a suggestion of what works….not something you should pursue.

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chemicalmatt said:

As a rule you should not add sheer stress to cationic emulsions. I am not one to question Evonik, they are wise chemists, but on this one they may be wrong on the EQ 75. Cool slowly with low sheer/slow mixing and you will come out OK.

………add shear to a cationic emulsion……..

At any time….or after the initial sheer?

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abierose said:

@Abdullah if it isn’t compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here’s a few I found via a Google search:

https://allvendi.com/products/moisture-defend-face-lotion?variant=40128106201254

https://ampbeautyla.com/products/scotch-porter-nourish-repair-hair-conditioner

https://aylabeauty.com/products/ursa-major-go-easy-daily-conditioner

https://www.shopbeautydepot.com/products/shea-moisture-kids-2-in-1-shampoo-conditioner-8oz

https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/

If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible ????‍♀️

You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.

And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy…. They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label….so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group.  Or….and more probable….clueless.   One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.

Per an earlier thread of mine….some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics.  Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate.  I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.  

Oh…and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.

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Not sure what you’re making….but other than water…most formulas never hit the 5% range (other than an oil or the likes)… Some ingredients will seriously damage you at 5%.

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It is cheapest.  If you going to make something that doesn’t work, it naturally follows that you use the cheapest ingredients, hence the most profit, and why it was made to begin with. 

Only thing proven to grow hair: Minoxidil

Follow the $$$

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Well…when working with a polymeric like that….just take water…and mix it at several ratios….

say .35, .5, and .65%….and see the resulting product….and determine which one you like the best.  I think much over .75…you’re looking at a solid…hehehe.

Skip all the other ingredients….just find the viscosity and feel you want of the Zen.