Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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MarkBroussard said:BTW: I personally cannot use Tresemme shampoo … it literally makes the skin on my hands peel.
What in that shampoo, do you attribute to this issue?
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As the formulator…I am impressed with jamming 10% natural oils and butters into a hand cream….that disappears without a trace, and soothes, moisturizes, and softens the skin.
But I have a sneaking suspicion that the customer….wants to ‘feel’ something???
(Meaning I am probably more impressed with B, but guessing consumers might want A.)
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I typically formulate with dl Panthenol in the range of .4 to .5%.
I have been told I have very calming creations….
I always use Allantoin (at .5% of water phase….which is lower than .5% of total formula), and dl Panthenol at those very low rates.
Mark is absolutely right….Panthenol at higher levels….simply becomes sticky yuck….. and unlikely to create a benefit.
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A little confused with the terms ‘low viscosity’ and ‘cream’ in the same sentence….
But I make a delightful facial cream with Montanov 202 and GSC.
I always add a twist of Aristoflex and a sprig of Carbomer, but maybe that won’t fit your ‘natural’ definition.
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MarkBroussard said:
You missed a shout out to @chemicalmatt whose vast knowledge of the field is truly amazing.
Agreed!!! Matt has given me some VERY fundamental keys to making some products really work for me. Triethyl Citrate forever will be on my bench from Matt.
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I am a poor resource for you…because I do not factor cost when I formulate… I only chase performance and texture.
First…. I am crazy for fast breaking, wet feeling products that dry quickly with a cooling sensation, and feel as close to weightless as possible. Creams with a gel undertone. I expect them to feel like products one might have tried that cost $200+. So pentylene glycol brings an incredible ‘wet’ feel when added to a formula (more so than other glycols I have tried). So automatically a ‘yes’ for me. Compound this with other well known fast breaking components…and you can begin to imagine. However, I also use Pentylene G as part of a larger preservative program, as jemolian mentioned. I also use the afore mentioned 1,2-Hexanediol plus caprylyl glycol in everything I make. I think pharma has an affinity for the glycols…and has really pushed me down that path (so I use use several in each project)…hehehe.
I think the point Jemolian makes about how humectants perform at different humidities…. is often overlooked. I produce products in a rain forest…. So I need them to be comfortable here…as well as in a dry climate. Based on feedback from personal and testers from around the globe, I have for the most part, hit the target I sought. I don’t think that could have been achieved with a single humectant. That being said….if you are selling into a single climate….than one could hypothetically test the humectants against the climate, and make a match.
I am not a huge fan/follower/believer in HA…but I use it in absolutely everything. Partly for claim…and partly…when I take it out….I notice it. I use a magical blend of wet and dry silicones….and I am suspecting a synergy in this area with HA. The moisturizing aspects of some of my projects….are greater than the sum of the parts.
I do not use BG or Propylene glycol…probably more for consumer perception than any other reason. When I was evaluating PG against Propanediol… in my climate Propanediol clearly out performed it. This again….results will vary with climate and other factors. When I tested both BG and PG….they never really stood out in a formula….like Pentylene glycol…..that one will make you sit up and pay attention. Sidebar…. lots of glycols…can cause issues in emulsions….so better be using something pretty stout with them. I am typically starting with a core of 165, and flavoring it with a Montanov + GSC or a cationic (w/o GSC).
I guess my final point on humectants would be…. who cares…if you don’t support them with stellar barrier function. They’re all short lived…if you don’t lock them in and down.
I break every project into the functional aspects….and build the supporting cast for each aspect, otherwise all is for naught.
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jemolian said:Guess it’s never ending, I’m still learning as well
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Couldn’t agree more….It has been my life motto… Learn something new each day.
For what it is worth, I attribute 100% of what I have learned and created to this forum, and to several of the amazing chemist who inhabit it. What I knew before arriving…basically had to be ‘unlearned’. Granted I try and do some research before popping my questions…but there is so much conflicting information on line…that the only way to clarify it, is to have someone who has lived and breathed it, explain the ‘why’ of what I am experiencing.
Many cosmetic samples and Macadamia nuts have traveled from the shadows of Mauna Loa to the shadows of Uetliberg. And to that amazing friend…I could not have done it without you….but you already know that! Mahalo!
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I do not have the chemistry background to answer your question…but I will toss this out there.
Typically (not always) BG will be less sticky. So some formulators will split the formula, as they feel things get too tacky with just glycerin. However…as many of you know…I’ll buy the same ingredient from multiple suppliers …. just to compare. I did this with BG (when I was using it….no long am)…. and when one of the repackers offered a non-petrol based version…I jumped all over it….and you guessed it….more gross than glycerin!
I use glycerin at low levels…but love to support it with propanediol, betaine, and my all time fav….pentylene glycol. (I call that one…my secret weapon.)
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Abdullah said:Graillotion said:Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
Thanks
What did you add next and next untel cationic?I put the Varisoft EQ 65 in the oil phase, so the GLDA and Varisoft do not meet until emulsification.
The formula is now working magically…I am on version #16.
So Keep in mind…this formula is still primarily 165 @ 3%, and Varisoft EQ 65 at 2%.
Since my GLDA is liquid, it is only 50% active…therefore at my inclusion rate of .1%…it is more like .05%.
Pharma suggested (and was right as usual) that SepiGel 305 would work in this scenario, (I believe) due to the lower rate of the Varisoft EQ 65….and the inclusion post emulsion. The different anionic gelling agents have varying levels of how they will interact with cationics, and it was his belief that 305 was one of the better possible candidates, based on it’s constituents.
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Your open mind has been appreciated. Sometime the newbies that float in…have been so indoctrinated from the mommy blogger sites….there is no helping them.
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abierose said:Speaking of @Pharma, what are your thoughts on this topic?
If you want to see his thoughts….scroll through this thread.
What to avoid when using cationic emulsifiers….. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)
We have just recently dealt with this issue…and you have the end result….in hand!
And….cosmetic companies are generally started by dreamers and marketers….and far more rarely….by chemist!
So always weigh the facts. -
Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%. A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!
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tianaloveorganics said:Perry said:If you are making a “hair oil” which is meant to soften hair and make it more manageable or feel nicer, then 5% oil would certainly have an impact.
If you’re making a “hair growth oil” then neither 5% or 100% of any oil ingredient is going to work. Oils are not proven to make hair grow.
thank you so much for that I know minoxidil is the only proven thing is that it?? and so where can I purchase minoxidil to use in my product
Last time I checked, Minoxidil is a drug, not a cosmetic.
This is a completely different arena. I think it was only a suggestion of what works….not something you should pursue.
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chemicalmatt said:As a rule you should not add sheer stress to cationic emulsions. I am not one to question Evonik, they are wise chemists, but on this one they may be wrong on the EQ 75. Cool slowly with low sheer/slow mixing and you will come out OK.
………add shear to a cationic emulsion……..
At any time….or after the initial sheer?
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abierose said:@Abdullah if it isn’t compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here’s a few I found via a Google search:https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/
If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible ????♀️
You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.
And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy…. They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label….so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group. Or….and more probable….clueless. One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.
Per an earlier thread of mine….some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics. Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate. I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.
Oh…and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
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Not sure what you’re making….but other than water…most formulas never hit the 5% range (other than an oil or the likes)… Some ingredients will seriously damage you at 5%.
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It is cheapest. If you going to make something that doesn’t work, it naturally follows that you use the cheapest ingredients, hence the most profit, and why it was made to begin with.
Only thing proven to grow hair: Minoxidil
Follow the $$$
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Well…when working with a polymeric like that….just take water…and mix it at several ratios….
say .35, .5, and .65%….and see the resulting product….and determine which one you like the best. I think much over .75…you’re looking at a solid…hehehe.
Skip all the other ingredients….just find the viscosity and feel you want of the Zen.
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I’m sure you know….but Zen below .5% is a wonderful thing, and above that…kinda becomes giggly and gross.
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Choose the one you like the ‘feel’ the best….and simply increase it until you get the viscosity that you desire.
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Just get this and be done with it! You’ll make amazing products:
Dynamic MiniPro MX069.1 Blender/ Homogenizer, 6.5, 115V Dynamic Blenders - BakeDeco.Com
I know this is a US website….but since it is French made….you can get it in the EU. They even sell it under another name in the EU (can’t remember the brand name)….with the same attachment…and the attachment is KEY… the standard head will not create the same level of product as the homogenizer head.
Everyone (in my circles) that has purchased this has felt that it took their products up several notches….(from common household stick blenders or cheap Chinese homogenizers.)
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:Could you describe what you like about behenyl….and what you switched from? I have also started using behenyl in my latest hand cream. But was having trouble putting my finger on what I liked about it.
I have tried all the fatty alcohols in this body cream (which is mostly for my dry hands) I’ve been trying to perfect. I moved from cetyl alcohol (too thin, not protective or cushioned enough) to cetearyl (too oily-waxy) to behenyl. The behenyl alcohol has been able to give a softer, more cushioned, velvety afterfeel than cetyl and cetearyl. Also, due to that cushion, it allows the applying hand to smoothly skim over the skin during application which gives an elegant/modern feel. It also works well with more oily/buttery ingredients as all together, they help to form that smooth cushion on the skin. It takes some tweaking to get it to that point. You need to add enough behenyl alcohol for the wax to have enough coverage to give that smooth/skimmable feel without any gaps/skips. But not too much that it gets draggy and whitening. This balance seems to depends on the other ingredients. I’ve tried some products where I can really feel that softness and elegant cushion of the behenyl alcohol.. and I feel that they are able to pack so much behenyl alcohol in because their other ingredients are very light.. Avene Tolerance Emulsion for example, which is really light and silky to apply but with that soft, cushioned afterfeel (maybe at least 3% behenyl alcohol or more seeing as it’s the only wax ingredient?). I can also feel the behenyl alcohol in Augustinus Bader The Body Cream, where they’ve gone for a heavier, draggy product but with the same soft, cushioned, skimmable afterfeel. It’s combined with a lot of shea butter and other waxes so they might have less behenyl than the amount used for the Avene product.
I was surprised that behenyl alcohol wasn’t as draggy or whitening as I thought it would be.
Is any of the above what you liked about it?? :smiley:
Awesome description. The hand cream I am working on has 3.6% fatty alcohol, with behenyl being twice as much as Cetyl. I think you have given me courage to try doing 100% behenyl.
I just got two new crosspolymers today….which felt absolutely astounding neat on the skin….and monumentally better than the first one I bought. So I will have to run those through the formula…and I will try removing the cetyl and going with 100% behenyl.
Thank you so much for your detailed description. This is that Illipe butter hand cream I mentioned a while back. It has some candelilla, glyceryl oleate, and polyisobutene in it…., so getting some really good moisturizing. Plus I think I have stumbled across some synergies with HA and various silicones.
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What country do you live in?
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:Are you meaning palmitic acid as a sole ingredient? Or also including carrier oils/butters high in palmitic? You know where I stand on that topic.
I know it is not the same…but I really like using cetyl palmitate vs cetyl alcohol. I feel it makes for a much more elegant end product.
Yep, I mean palmitic acid as a sole ingredient, which I also found it hard to buy… had to order it from Making Cosmetics in the end… there was nowhere in the UK or Europe that had it. That’s compared to stearic acid which is easily obtained everywhere.
My skin seems to like oils and butters which have higher levels of palmitic acid, which is why I was curious to try palmitic acid as a sole ingredient.
I tried cetyl palmitate in this version of a body cream I’ve been making, and it wasn’t quite the right feel or moisturisation. But I have tried it in the past where it did better. I am liking behenyl alcohol at the moment.
Could you describe what you like about behenyl….and what you switched from? I have also started using behenyl in my latest hand cream. But was having trouble putting my finger on what I liked about it.
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Are you meaning palmitic acid as a sole ingredient? Or also including carrier oils/butters high in palmitic? You know where I stand on that topic.
I know it is not the same…but I really like using cetyl palmitate vs cetyl alcohol. I feel it makes for a much more elegant end product.