[Graillotion]

Sorry to be really blunt…but haven’t seen one like this is a while!

Umh… Missing a preservative! (Don’t point at the phytocide…that is wishful thinking.) While you are at it…get a chelate.

You have a who’s who of oxidation nightmares. Maybe study some of those…before sweeping the kitchen sink into the potion.

Aloe is all beginner hype…and no substance, other than being a preservation nightmare.

The glycerol is a good start, but tends to get sticky….if you use enough of it. Hence I would use maybe 3%, and consider adding something else….say sodium lactate…or many various and sundry humectants.

Coconut, mango and beeswax are heavy and nasty. Pretty much exactly what you don’t want for oily skin. Look at the esters…and lighter oils….like rosehip, raspberry, milkthistle…etc…etc. Butters are just thick oils…typically with a poor fatty acid triglyceride profile…but for some reason…beginners flock to them???

Good Luck.

There is a Free beginner formulation course affiliated with this site…. I think you might find it valuable.

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Just to make sure you understood what I meant. You should not use ANY purported preservative from the company that makes the one you listed. They cast a wide net…so make sure you know who the mfg is…not just the seller, and all the names they try and hide behind.

If you are interested in proper preservation, this site is honored to be frequented by one of the world’s foremost experts….you know….the guy that wrote the literal book on it. I will attach an interview with Perry and Dr Phil Geis…and if you like….you can view it.

Aloha.

Cosmetic Preservative Question & Answer session on Vimeo

[Graillotion]

Unless you are gonna zap it with high pH, and use it as an emulsifier. Why not consider behenyl alcohol? Stearic acid is an easy workaround…and working around it…typically makes the product better. 😉

[Graillotion]

Since I formulate in the US…. many of my ingredients are included at rates of 1% or .99%. This is due to where I want them to fall on the INCI.

[Graillotion]

Maybe just my weak mind…. but I have no idea what you are asking? Can you rephrase?

In the USA… We have the FDA… that gives guidelines on INCI format….and is supposed to reign in false claims. 😆 Trust me…..creative liberties are still rampant, and the ‘use it till you get caught’ theory is the rule among small companies and mommy bloggers. Ignorance is the best defence….right? 😉

[Graillotion]

Amino Powder Cleanser, Powder, Powder Cleanser (myskinrecipes.com)

myskinrecipes.com

Amino Powder Cleanser, Powder, Powder Cleanser

Powder Cleanser / Powder Foam Cleanser by detergent ingredients after coming from amino acids. Giving the skin the most tenderness

[Graillotion]

Emulsifiers certainly can be….as they are basically soap….a lot of the time.

[Graillotion]

As is about the answer for any emulsifier question, the ‘165’ type is always hard to beat (Glyceryl stearate and PEG 100 Stearate). Might be something to it being the world’s most widely used emulsifier. 😉 Thicken with some fatty alcohols…gel the water a kiss with a gum, and maybe .25% SSG (anionic aspect) to make sure it is bulletproof. BINGO….you’re done.

Probably would have been helpful….had you listed your last emulsifier package….and supporting cast member….you know…. fatty alcohols….gums….waxy esters….etc. Hard for us to put a puzzle together in the dark.

[Graillotion]

I do have to say….the way I formulate…. soaping is simply a non-issue. So, it is a little hard for me to address.

I did find this blurb from KK…and they are recommending using cetyl palmiate, aka cetyl esters. You could sure give it a try. They mention it in this marketing propaganda piece….listed as: Kester Wax K-48. I suspect the slightly more lovely Myristyl Myristate might do the same thing.

Another ester wax…that often enhances things would be: Lauryl Laurate. Hard to go wrong with that one.

Controlling Soaping in Your Emulsions without Silcones (kosterkeunen.com)

kosterkeunen.com

Controlling Soaping in Your Emulsions without Silcones

A common problem with emulsions arises when the formulation produces unwelcome “soaping” in manufacture or in use. Now you can control soaping without silicones.

[Graillotion]

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

Take a peek at this old thread.

chemistscorner.com

Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner

First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation…

[Graillotion]

You hit the nail on the head, supporting the Montanov’s with a kiss of anionic emulsifier. As they are inherently weak emulsifiers, this is just what the Doctor ordered. (And the model the mfg often recommends in the very small print, at least 3 pages deep….so it does not conflict with their earlier claims of the emulsifier being robust. 😂 )

It does not take much of SSG to get the job done from as little as .25% to maybe up to .4% (I typically use the .25% rate.)

Emulsifiers is more about using the right amount for your oil phase, than how many you use. Each time you add one (if you think it is necessary), you reduce in another area.

Regarding soaping….that is usually as simple as adding a silicone oil…(dimethicone, or even cyclomethicone) will usually get the job done….often making the product feel better and perform better as a side benefit.

Soaping is also often a sign of using too much emulsifier. Since you did not give formula….cannot speculate on the topic.

There are numerous hacks for soaping….but dimethicone is the good old….’One and done’ solution. I think I have done a thread on this topic….if I find it… I’ll link it.

[Graillotion]

It is not uncommon to have a different end result (haptically and viscosity speaking), when there is an equipment change. Sometimes to the extent that you slightly tweak the formula….to compensate.

There are a lot of details missing from your scenario…. sometime when you add a machine that actually creates shear (Misceo/Dynamic with the right head) … you can damage some things like polymerics, or various other steric hinderance creations….that lesser stick blenders did not damage. In cases like this… one would simply add them after the emulsification process, and sometime temperature appropriate to the stirring phase.

I typically shear for 2 minutes…. at a temp above 65 C….as this will not harm lamellar emulsions. The balance of the time is spent under the stirrer.

Once I shear for two min….then I stir to cooldown. Commonly I shear again when the last few ingredients are added at cooldown, at the end for 30-45 seconds….to assure perfect incorporation. If I manage to not introduce any air….I pour…. if I ‘ooop’sed’ then I toss it back on the stirrer for a minute or two….and life is good again.

[Graillotion]

Use rate is 5 to 10X higher than should be. Range it between .05 and .1%.

You did not say…are there even natural oils to protect in the formula? (Do you need the E)

Acetate form does not protect oils…so if that is the goal, don’t select that form.

There are alternatives…. Like Rosemary oil extract.

Since you did not list the formula….it could also me something entirely differently.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

You can see the discussion on Vit E here: At bullet point #4 (Your research will lead you to this eventually….if you stay off the beginner sites.)

How to Formulate Like a Pro - (makingskincare.com)

makingskincare.com

Formulate cosmetics like a pro -

With over 35,000 students already, this article reveals essential tips & tricks to make safe organic skin and hair cosmetics. Formulation tips and tricks.

[Graillotion]

Goes in the oily phase.

As with anything in this broad category (emollients)….there are many aspects to consider. I once tried to put this in a deodorant for people with sensitive armpit skin (me)…. I almost went to the hospital! Solvents often get lumped into the emollient section. Never forget that skin is coated in sebum….and solvents dissolve sebum. Hence you have to look at your emollients/solvents very closely for what you are attempting to accomplish.

Probably the first category break-out would be volatility….the one you mentioned is volatile. If this is a requirement? If so, you have knocked many of the candidates out of the race.

For me, D5 was the perfect replacement….it could be used on sensitive skin with no need to be dialing 9-1-1 while applying. (Of course, D5 is not really gonna deliver actives….but there is a myriad of ways to get that done.) * Note: C Ultimate could be used on any of my other skin parts that are not as sensitive skin!

So, an early take-away I had to learn….was…. many emollients are solvents, and how much of that aspect do I want in the product. Penetration enhancers…well, they are a dime a dozen.

[Graillotion]

You have not listed any credible preservatives. You may need to hit rewind….and consider better preservatives.

Preservative Reviews - (makingskincare.com)

Things that maintain pH are called buffers. Things like Arginine will alter pH to a desired point, but generally will not continue to hold them in place like a buffer.

I would consider starting with better preservatives, and seeing if the pH drift continues. I assume you are using a meter to take these readings?

When discussing a topic like this…we need more information. Things like is urea in the product or gluconolactone…etc…etc… It is very hard to address a concern…when lots of guessing is involved. (You did not even tell us which way the pH is drifting. 😉 )

Good Luck.

makingskincare.com

Which natural preservative is best - we review over 20 -

Most preservatives fail preservative tests. We review over 20 and reveal the best. Natural preservatives for skin care.

[Graillotion]

😂 Sometimes it helps to know….whom owns the retailer…then you can be assured that the information is worthless! On that note….what retailer have you ever found…that knew which way was up… with the exception of Simply Ingredients (speaking on behalf of USA only retailers)?

Preservative not working…. is the least of my concerns…. those types are a dime a dozen and available on every street corner. In all probability…if the OP returns to where the original information was sourced…. will end up with something almost as bad, or just as bad. My concerns with Company X… is the flippant use of any old petrol based preservative, much like their business model of following the example of Grape Fruit Seed Extract, and using an exemption not to list it on the INCI, the real preservative…. and then pretending it is natural….when it is actually less natural than some of those that don’t pretend.

With no mention of chelate, pH, glycols…etc… What can we really hope for?

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Thank you for your feedback….I have done a tremendous amount of back and forth between Dicap Carb and Ethylhexyl isononanoate. I chose the latter as my final winner for dry emollient. What gave the Ethylhexyl isononanoate the ‘win’ was if gives a less shiny (more matte) finish….otherwise those two are my top picks for a dry emollient.

The project I just finished had a lot of silicone oils in it…. and I thought that the blend of Ethylhexyl isononanoate and the C12-15 AB was the perfect mix for stability with branched chain esters and with various polarities at play.

I have always been one to buy multiple ‘same’ ingredients from various suppliers and compare them, and have always found VAST differences! None more so than CCT….which ranged from nasty to elegant. But interestingly enough…..which I wouldn’t have expected from a synthetic ingredient….the runner up….for most varience….vendor to vendor….was absolutely… C 12-15 AB !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go figure.

So, I did end up with a C12-15 AB that I am very fond of….and for a guy that has made ester’s his lifeblood….that is saying a lot. I have to thank @chemicalmatt , and his pure and deep love for C 12-15 AB, for my continued testing of this multi-functional….to the point that I also came to cherish it. 😍

• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Graillotion.

[Graillotion]

Yes….anything above 1% inclusion rate must be listed in descending order. Below 1% anything goes….and does go…in the name of formula protection.

I consider INCI contstruction….the 2nd most entertaining portion of the process…. listing the ingredients in a plausible, but completely different order….to keep the copy-cats at bay….and guessing.

Most of the beginners have no idea….and think reading an INCI is descending order….start to finish. 🤣 Makes them so interesting…..when you read their synopsis of products.

[Graillotion]

Many of us use them. Top notch.

A lot of times they rename the product. I suspect they have them…you just need to look a little deeper.

They ship DHL….you should have product in your hands….in 5 days.

Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate (myskinrecipes.com)

myskinrecipes.com

Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate

Detergent made from amino acids (amino acids) is very gentle. Moisturizing the skin And give a large amount of lather

[Graillotion]

When I asked the brilliant minds…. about this very question, the response was…. it is not so much the addition of low HLB that fixes the problem, but the corresponding reduction of high HLB that you replace with low HLB. If that makes any sense to you.

I would first and foremost…make sure you are not using too much emulsifier.

Another old trick….is to put the Montanovs into the water phase vs the oil phase….and they tend (like OliveM 1000) to create a finer emulsion that soaps less. NOTE: Not all emulsifiers can go in the water phase.

NOTE II: If using M 202 … make sure to heat phases to 85 C to get full melt.

[Graillotion]

Well……….. Candelilla Wax can be quite yellow.

Typically when we have issues…..we do what is called a ‘knockout’ test… to confirm our suspicions of a problem ingredient. I’d say you have two.

Make very small batches in one, leave out the E

In the other leave out the C wax. (You could sub in an alternate…that is not colored.)

See what your result is.

Note: even if the issue is with C wax….make sure you reduce your E levels to functional amounts. Using as much as you did….actually has negative properties! (Too much of a good thing.)

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Very. 😉

What scientific. peer reviewed material are you basing a need for higher rates of allantoin than can go into water?

[Graillotion]

As mentioned… Caprylhydroxamic Acid, has some chelating activity….so gonna eat up your copper. In my mind, that is the only good thing about Caprylhydroxamic Acid….is the chelating aspect. Every other aspect is intensely negative.

Lose the peptide, or keep it at .001% for marketing material.

[Graillotion]

@Kireisha what chelate and what preservative are you using? Is there something more than ‘caprylhydroxamic acid’ in the mixture?