Graillotion
Forum Replies Created
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I am having a little trouble following the timeline. But it sounds a little like a phase inversion (for lack of details). This occurs when an emulsion tries to first become a W/O instead of O/W. They manifest as being very thick at first. Typically once you reach a certain point that breaks…and tries to return to O/W which is typically far less viscous.
Again… without a detailed description of what is happening at what point in time… I could be way off.
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As mentioned above….. the water is hidden not only in the first ingredient, but in the second as well.
FYI in commercial formulas….the HA is NO WHERE NEAR the 1% line.
Many times, the HA is made in advance….as it takes 24 hours to fully hydrate….so it just makes sense. This is also an opportunity to introduce the real preservative to the formula….as the one listed simply won’t do the job. ???? (Don’t ask for further clarification… ???? )
So, I am not aware of any regulation that says what percentage of water your HA slurry contains…. hence….I’m guessing….. AS MUCH AS THEY WANT. (Granted….correct INCI format would have you place it where the actual ingredient would fall (well….well…below 1% line) vs how much of the hydrated product you included.)
All in all….not a formula I would even attempt to learn from.
Good Luck.
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That does not sound like a formula for a cream.
Maybe, a little background before you get started…. you know….walk before you run?
This site offers a free introduction, and possibly some of your questions might be answered there, if you will invest the time in a FREE course.
Aloha
chemistscorner.com
Chemists Corner is a website about cosmetic science that will help you become a cosmetic chemist and formulator of beauty products.
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First …Not my area. ????
Second… surprised I did not see hexyl resorcinol on the list…. granted you listed two things by brand name….(not helpful).
When looking at a new venture…I always like to hear what George has to say on the topic….even if he is just regurgitating from dubious papers. ????
Good luck.
Developing Skin-Lightening Products (ulprospector.com)
ulprospector.com
Developing Skin-Lightening Products
Skin lightening refers to the ability of a product to reduce hyper-pigmented areas or spots on the skin. These products, also referred to as skin-whiteners, bri
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For interactions…. keep your cationics and anionics for the most part…. apart from each other.
Preservatives that use an organic acid, pretty much need to be formulated at 5.5 or below to have any efficacy…NO MATTER WHAT THE BS MARKETING MATERIAL SAYS.
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I worked myself up from the bottom over the last 7 years. I have also contributed to some beginner sites, and see the pitfalls they tend to fall into.
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The errors most beginners make can be summed up as follows:
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Use WAY TOO MUCH GREASE (oils and butters). A little goes a long way….and more is always worse…not better. (What ever you think is right…cut it by 50%….and you’ll already be a better formulator.
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They rarely use enough emollient/esters….what makes good commercial stuff good….is the emollient/ester cascade. (And a fast-break polymeric is nothing to sneeze at.)
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Believe the plant extracts actually do something. They don’t. They just add to the preservation burden. You include them at .1% and market the crap out of them….but not much more.
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Rarely use enough humectants….and don’t use multiple forms. Most products…..customers will appreciate….if they simply moisturize. This is done with humectants….and humectants that are different. There is no ONE humectant. Glycerin is a good start …. but way better when you give it some friends.
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And the most important for last. Get your preservation from those that know, DO NOT DO A SURVEY OF OTHER BEGINNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the most important aspect. The thing you will find in common with the cosmetic blogs are these: No formal education in a related field. Never worked a day in the cosmetic industry. These are NOT the people you want to be getting your preservation information from.
- Learn what the hurdle approach / hurdle technology is in cosmetics.
Until you understand that the preservation sellers are in a B2B format, and not required to tell you the truth….you will be completely lost. They will ALL say…. ‘Broad Spectrum’ ….. which literally means absolutely NOTHING. (Means kills or inhibits two or more things.) On a site like this, you have one of the most brilliant people in the field, on the topic, Dr Phil Geis. He is very generous with his time, and if you put a preservation type question in the header….he will usually jump in. Of course, preservations that pose as a dead ferment, nut, tree bark or berry…..are ludicrous cons that have been around forever, to feed the imaginations of the ignorant.
Good luck….and Aloha.
PSS: For bonus points….NEVER call anything a recipe… and formulas are done in grams and percentages. ????
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A lot of us in the USA and globally…use this Thai place. They are incredible…and use DHL shipping. You’ll have it in 5 days…after you approve your order.
They do have some nuances….like… 1-500 grams is the same base rate shipping… so best get your order right around 500 gm (mix and match). They will package to any size. Awesome with their paperwork…etc…etc.
And…best of all…they carry every ingredient you ever dreamed about.
Aloha
Polyglyceryl-10 Stearate (myskinrecipes.com)
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It is not heat sensitive…just add to your water phase up front.
As with any ingredient…try it neat…. 97% water 3% trehalose. Evaluate and adjust.
I use it at 3% in a deo formula…less in all others. The deo has no other sticky stuff like oils or humectants….so no issue at all. Generally I use betaine instead of trehalose in all other formulas.
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Thank you for this little gem… I will tuck it away for future use.
In Steinberg’s context… what antioxidant is he suggesting should be used? @PhilGeis
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Many people do not realize….the chelate has the second most profound effect on preservation. They just view it as something that keeps the formula stable….it is MUCH MUCH more that.
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Keep the chelate for multiple reasons. Even MB’s making magnesium potions and lotions can and should use a chelate.
A chelate has varying affinity’s… and generally they prefer iron over all others. As you are well aware, mold struggles in an environment completely devoid of iron ions.
Yes…your chelate will become completely exhausted in your metal potion…but it will prioritize what metals it binds with first. This will also be enhanced with the order…..add you water portion and chelate…before you toss the other metals into the potion.
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Thank you @chemicalmatt for dropping in and rubbing elbows with us earthlings.
I have made my first foray into the world of Salicylic acid…. which has in turn introduced me to a few ingredients that I had not worked with before.
The Sytheon rep mentioned it….as well as I had my eye on it for a while….just needed to be pushed.
Aloha.
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great extra piece to be aware of!
Aloha.
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@ozgirl without reading all 45 pages…. the coverage of that document…seems to be ‘organic’ and ‘natural’. Natural I completely agree with…. so you would still say…. ” organic zinc oxide” in not an acceptable term? Right?
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Thank you for your research.
It is probably sold to them as…… “The trees that grow our ZnO have not been sprayed with synthetic chemicals or fertilized with toxic fertilizers. They were only grown in the presence of monks humming KumBaya.” ????
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Umh…..here in the US, that was not a conspiracy theory, but a vaunted agenda…under the name “No child left behind.” Where ALL children were left behind, in the name of the greater good, and goal of ignorance for all.
The results have clearly manifested throughout society now. The politicians realized that an ignorant constituency was far easier to control, than an intellectual one. You can imagine trying to control a society of intellectuals….it would be like herding cats! ????
Aloha
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It ALMOST seems like you are correlating good products with customer purchases. ????
Customer purchases are almost always correlated to your marketing story. The bigger the pile of BS you can create….the more likely you are to have a big pile of customers as well.
Always focus on your marketing….product is somewhat a moot point.
????
If you want to learn from a successful seller…. you study their marketing approach… NOT the LOI/INCI!
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Wasn’t aware of any companies using ‘toxic’ ingredients! If you come across such a thing, please report to the FDA immediately.
If you look at the ‘baby’ product segment…. You will often see PE 9010. This is generally considered one of the very best for sensitive skin. It does have its weaknesses, so certainly not a standalone option. (The reference to baby products….is a synonym for non-irritating, or very low probability of irritation.)
The fake ferment should NOT be used for babies, as it has hidden ingredients, including salicylic acid!!!
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Not ChemMatt….and he is still around on occasion. ????
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Please understand….I view these ingredients as osmolytes, and don’t necessarily view them as strong humectants, albeit one of them is doing a pretty dang good job of it. Hence, I do not discard the trehalose as not having value…. Simply the test lended itself to lauding the humectancy of the betaine.
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Let me show you three slides. Took betaine, and trehalose…. and just set them out in a room…. overnight. You can see the difference in the third slide…that was the next morning. NOTHING added….just left out in a room with relative humidity in the mid 70% range. Enjoy…..and then buy your betaine. ???? Slide one is start of test, slide two is after a few hours, and slide 3 is the next morning. Aloha @ggpetrov
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My lab is far more humid than yours….Yup I live in a rainforest! ???? It is that exact aspect…that makes it such a wonderful ingredient…. can you imagine what it is doing on your skin? (attracting moisture)
The key of course is…. the very moment you open the bag….you drop in some silica packets….and replace them every month or so. Sometimes it takes a little effort….should you desire to create the magic. If I can make betaine remain useful in a forest that gets 300 inches of rain a year, and humidity that never drops below 90%…. You can make it work as well. ????
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Just out of curiosity, why the 90C?
I thought my 85C was the top of the game…with my love of M 202 and behenyl alcohol.
Aloha.
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Yes, I am very aware LGP is an F releaser! I was asking for the replacement (non F-releasing)…since that was a FORMER recommendation.
Also, very aware of the weaknesses of PE 9010…and how to bolster it. Problem is dealing with those that don’t. Those that want to learn…can be coached into the supporting cast. Those that think they have already gone the extra mile by simply including a preservative (And this segment is HUGE!) well, all you can do is cross your fingers. Better PE 9010…than having them chase the ‘G’ brand….and not use a pH where they even have any activity…(most of the time….cus the ‘tards’ advertise their organic acids work up to a pH of 8 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!) You told be the change in ownership…..would clean up their act…but have not seen a single movement in that regard. 🙁 (Marketing language that is consistent with their products performance.)
So, I was asking… If I had formerly recommended Liquid Germall Plus…. what would be the next best replacement waiting in line….to take its place?
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Hahaha…. I was just telling Pharma yesterday….I save my ‘exercises in futility’ for voting. He has an unhealthy infatuation with US politics. ????
So hypothetical question @PhilGeis , sometimes I help out on beginner forums….and it used to be my pairing of preservatives (not together…one or the other) when they would ask for a recommendation was…. PE 9010 or Liquid Germall Plus. For the beginner crew…that will probably be adverse to anything good… and only have access to beginner repacker ingredients…. What would be your replacement piece to recommend for a ‘One and Done’ drop in. (Of course I know that is the impossible answer….and hated to even present it that way…. but that is the very best you are going to hope for….other than getting them to add a chelate.)
Aloha…. Passed the weekends tropical storm, and preparing for the hurricane later this week.