[Graillotion]

Paprik said:

Agreed!…I take all my formulas (which include B3) to 5.5-5.9.  The sharpest chemist in the drawer…confirmed this was absolutely fine.  Granted I top out at 2%, and I believe that was under consideration with his recommendation.

You need a LOT of time, heat, and a strong acid to create a negative in this pH range.  See the blurb I pasted below:

The paper that I am referring to is called “Rate Studies on the Hydrolysis of Niacinamide” and they were using hydrochloric acid to perform the experiment in the acid region (which is all we care about here).  This is a significant detail as hydrochloric acid is a strong acid whereas AHA’s are weak acids.   Acid strength is not just about how much you put in a formula – 10%, 20%, 2% etc – it is also about how readily the acid let’s go of its hydrogen ion – its dissociation constant.  Strong acids completely dissociate in water meaning that even at low % concentrations the acid is quite potent. Weak acids have only a tiny part of themselves raring to go meaning that even at high concentrations they won’t be quite so aggressive.   The above study found that a 10% Niacinamide solution heated to around 89C and then taken to a pH of below 4.5 with a STRONG acid did start to hydrolyse and form Niacin and that this conversion was a first order reaction which basically means it went from Niacinamide to Niacin without turning into anything else first.  The study found that between pH 4.5-6 very little of this crazy game of shape shifting occurred.  In fact at pH 4.5 – 6 the half-life of the solution was found to be 1000 days which probably means that the average cosmetic formulator has little to worry about.

[Graillotion]

vitalys said:

@Abdullah I assume 20% is too much for the moisturizing product. This high glycerin content will have opposite effect and the skin will become even drier. 

I think the confusion lies with using 100% Glycerin….where drying can occur.  I took the liberty of pasting a blurb from inci decoder, below:

Geeky Details

Glycerin doesn’t sound very glamorous but it is a real oldie but a goodie. It’s been used in cosmetics for more than  50 years and it’s a totally natural ingredient that’s also in the outermost layer of our skin (called stratum corneum - SC). 

It’s a so-called humectant type of moisturiser meaning that it helps our skin to cling onto water. A 2005 study has shown that glycerin levels correlate with skin hydration levels, so more glycerin means better hydrated skin.

As newer studies examine glycerin it turns out more and more that it’s not just a simple humectant but also does some other important things: 

•  It makes sure that the gooey stuff between the skin cells is neither too diluted nor too concentrated (it’s called osmoregulation)
• It helps to maintain the healthy state of the cell membranes and intracellular lipids (keeping the lipids in a nice liquid crystal state that is optimal for barrier function)
• It can normalize skin shedding in very dry skin. 
• It protects against skin irritation (such as washing your face too much and/or too aggressively)

What this all means is that glycerin is a real superstar and helps to maintain the healthy state of our skin in several ways. 

And there is even more. If your skin is severely dry, you have to read this. A large-scale study done with 394 guys and girls with dry skin compared two high-glycerin (containing 25% and 40% glycerin) moisturizers to 16 other popular moisturizers on the market (that had less than 6% glycerin). The two high-glycerin ones won hands down. They had superior, quick-acting hydrating properties and they also seemed to create a “reservoir” of moisture-holding ability in the skin. This means that even after not using the high-glycerin moisturizer the skin stayed hydrated longer compared to all the other low glycerin moisturizers. 

You might think now that this is sooo awsome I will go to the pharmacy right now buy some glycerin and put it on my face. Well, do not do that. 100% pure glycerin is not good for the skin either. Too much glycerin (and in general humectants) might attract water out of the lower layers of the skin. That’s a problem because once water is in the upper layer some of it will evaporate. It’s called trans-epidermal-water-loss (TEWL). If too much TEWL happens your skin becomes dry.  

This is confirmed by a study too: skin treated to 99.7% glycerin for 5 days showed that after the treatment the SC (do you remember? it’s the outermost layer of the skin) was not visibly different from the untreated control. The same study also examined skin treated with a 25% glycerin lotion and there the SC had a visibly different, expanded - in other words more hydrated - appearance. 

So the thing to know about the optimal amount of glycerin is this: it is an effective molecule already from 3% (even from 1%, at least when combined with skin lipids), and the benefits tend to increase up until 20-40%. Around 10%, glycerin seems to have a reals sweet spot in terms of effects and usability. This amount is still possible to formulate into a relatively light, non-sticky and not too heavy formula (yes, glycerin is sticky and high % is really hard to formulate into a cosmetically elegant formula) but 10% also shows all the great therapeutic effects including effective moisturization with a reservoir effect, protecting against irritation, maintaining a healthy skin barrier and making the skin just smooth and plump. 

So bottom line: glycerin is a real goodie and far more than a simple moisturizer. In our opinion, it is an underappreciated superstar that deserves more spotlight than it is currently getting

[Graillotion]

Yes… SDS…is often used for an industrial accident.  You know…for emergency responders….or should a truck tip on the highway.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.   

@g@Graillotion three ingredients that i thought you guys may recommend was isopropyl Myristate, isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil ????. There prices are also good. 

what benefits did you like about isopropyl Myristate and how do you compare it to isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil?

I do not use the latter two, so I can not compare them.  It is one of the few ingredients that promises a less oily/greasy feel…that for me…actually delivers on that promise.  (I would find it hard to imagine that coconut oil would deliver the dry feel that IPM can.)

[Graillotion]

DaveStone said:

By the way, would you or anyone else recommend this:

Cholesterol NF-ELL-CHOLES-01

Cholesterol tends to be paired with ceramides.  I don’t think formulators seek it out on its own (that often).  Many of the ceramide mixes…already have the proper balance of cholesterol included in the blend.

[Graillotion]

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.   

[Graillotion]

Generally the higher the oleic acid content is…the more occlusive an oil is.

You might find this of some help:

The Best Occlusives to Use in Natural Skincare (botaneri.com)

I would not rely on it as a sole occlusive…unless you are chasing a minimalist framework.  Some other nice ones are candelilla wax, and my personal favorite…Floraesters K-20W® Jojoba.

Imagine adding as much of this as you feel you need…without ever making your product greasy or oily!

[Graillotion]

Is your main criteria…value?

Otherwise the Swiss and I would probably say…Mac Nut oil.

Is it the most slippery…NO

Most Cost effective… NO

Good for label and skin… YES

Hehehe…narrow your parameters a bit.

For pure slip and slide… I like IL, and LL…. and then I have a whole group of secondaries that I insert based on the product….face….hand….body….etc.

Also….I suppose the country you live in…and what is available…is a major factor.

If veggie oils can be players… Babassu…is always at the top of my list.

[Graillotion]

Following…. I have had repeated similar issues with the Montanov series.  End up with something good, but worries me like crazy, when it will not go together, at the combining temp.  My formula is rather different than yours.

[Graillotion]

Vitamin E has a little nicer ring…than BHT. 

ROE is a good choice.

[Graillotion]

You didn’t give much to go by….but what about sodium metabisulfite or Sodium thiosulfate…and that whole family of similars?

I use that in a really tough formula.

I also use TEC…which can go in either phase.  (Not smart enough to know which phase it works in though…hehehe.)

[Graillotion]

Only way is to make a batch…and weigh in and weigh out.  Too many factors….from time it takes to reach temp…surface area involved, relative humidity…and the list goes on….and on.  Example….if you heat a small batch quickly in the microwave…it will lose FAR less water than the same batch heated more slowly on a lab plate.

[Graillotion]

@Pharma I was going to reduce Behenyl alcohol and replace it for myristyl myristate.  (there is no behenyl behenate.)

I had read a post a while back, and the chemist said that MM was good at reducing play time?  Not the case in your opinion?

[Graillotion]

Well…on my first attempt to reduce…I will swap some (maybe 50/50?) of the behenyl for MM and then swap the CCC and Octyl palmitate for C12-15.

See if that is enough.

[Graillotion]

Sorry…I totally misunderstood you.  When you said natural…I thought you were using EO’s.  What that website sells…..who knows???  No documentation.

If you elect to use EO’s, I think you are aware that the citrus EO’s are the most volatile.  They can give a brief moment of delightful scent, but even with some manipulation….won’t stick around for long.

I will include an example of what an EO supplier should provide.  This particular supplier sells a lot of the EO’s that eventually get broken down into those tiny bottles (and usually watered down (with jojoba)), and sold around the net.

[Graillotion]

Syl said:

Unfortunately, the citrus orange or grapefruit plant-derived fragrances from my supplier are lackluster. I tried D-Limonene and essential oils (not strong enough even at a concentration above 2 percent). I made a mixture of all 3, still not great. I have encountered natural shampoo and conditioners that have a terrific natural citrus scent. 

First question.  Where are you getting your citrus EO’s from?  This is an industry where most of the small sellers….are selling adulterated product…which simply can not perform, even if it wanted to.

2nd… have you found an EO citrus combination….where if it were strong enough… you like it?  (I scent lotions with it at .6% and they are quite nice…granted shampoo and conditioner…you might want stronger.  A lotion should not double as a perfume….IMHO.)

What do the inci’s show….on the ‘natural’ shampoo….for what they used to scent it?

There are techniques for ‘fixing’ EO’s….but you absolutely have to start with real EO’s to begin with….not the diluted ones that many people are ending up with.

[Graillotion]

Are you asking for recommendations on good FO’s with a citrus scent?

Or 

Are you asking how to make a good citrus scent naturally?  (This in inherently difficult… nature of the beast.)

@RedCoast

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

 
Does type of emulsifier have effect on stability of emulsion without water phase thickener?

I have seen many lotions with cationic emulsifier that doesn’t have water phase thickener.
For example this lotion from Aveno

A cationic emulsifier (as I have recently discovered) eliminates a whole arsenal of tools from the bench….a lot of the gums and essentially all the polymerics.  You have seen me battle through this situation (with my questions)…and it seemed like HEC or HPC were the only options.  I found them disgusting.  

However, some Swiss wizard did help me figure a way to slip some 305 into the formula, and keep it stable.  It is a blended formula of 165 and Varisoft EQ 65.

[Graillotion]

PhilGeis said:

Do you guys get much analytical composition data with your essential oils?

I get all mine from New Directions Aromatics….so Yes…and that is why I use them.

[Graillotion]

Microformulation said:

@Cafe33 Over the years we moved away from it. Many of our clients liked Olivoil Glutamate as a direct replacement for Olivem as it solves many of the whitening/feel issues. https://www.kalichem.it/ingredients/olivoil-glutamate-emulsifier-g-pf/

There are how ever too many other great emulsifiers which fortunately are available from repackers or retail sites such as Formulator Sample Shop.

Just curious….what is high on your list?

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion that is very good.
Can you share a photo of your cream that how ot looks

Looks like this….and I think a blue container enhances the effect.

But I dispense from a clear plastic bag…into jars…and it is a nice light blue in the bag.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Graillotion do they add their color to final product too if used @ ≤0.5% noticably?

They blue ones….ABSOLUTELY…. I actually use it as a functional colorant in my pain cream….150 gm batch becomes QUITE blue …with 5 drops.

The wintergreen…No.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

@Bill_Toge thanks 

Are all pure essential oils clear or some of them like lavender? 
I did purchase some vetiver EO and it is also like oil and not clear.

NO!  Some are indigo blue!    Think chamomile and blue tansy.

Some are pink…think Wintergreen.

They have different colors.

[Graillotion]

100% NOT pure essential oil.

What was it advertised as?  When I see the words ….lavender essential oils….plural….leads me to believe this is promoted as some mix…with some EO’s in it.

Looks like a liter?  How much did that cost you?  In the US…a liter like that, from a top notch seller would cost about US $90.

[Graillotion]

Some agents…like sodium phytate are commonly used at that level….not so much because they think it is needed for chelation, but for the belief there are added skin benefits.

I don’t necessarily agree with the following statement…but here is what the people SELLING it say:

In addition to its chelating properties, Sodium Phytate has other skin benefits:

• Moisturizes skin
• Improves skin elasticity
• Normalizes oily skin
• May help reduce pore size
• Helps lighten skin
• May help improve the appearance  of cellulite

The chemist will find it easier to answer your question…if you list the chelator you plan to use.  Then after you tell them that….they will say…depends on the balance of the formula.