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You could sure take a look at adding triethyl citrate.

If I were making one….it would be in there.  (I don’t make one….but I’ve thought about it more than once.)

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Yeah….they are using this:

SK-INFLUX® V / INCI (PCPC name) Ceramide NP; Ceramide AP; Ceramide EOP; Phytosphingosine; Cholesterol; Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate; Carbomer; Xanthan Gum

Just moved the nice sounding things to the front of the line.

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Abdullah said:

Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate is cold processable and creates water thin emulsion

I will still use a base of 165….just looking for the ideal co-emulsifier.  The rest of the formula requires the strength of 165 to hold it together.  

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vitalys said:

@Graillotion … they perform this function only when combined with other components of the lipid bilayers - fatty acids and cholesterol in equimolar ratio. ….” if the ceramide is
provided without the addition of the other 2 key physiologic lipids at an appropriate ratio, i.e., with cholesterol
and ≥1 fatty acids, barrier function deteriorates rather
than improves”.

….. Polyglycerol emulsifiers w/o are the best when formulating with ceramides in terms of efficiency. 

Thank you for your response, and @Pattsi as well.  So I intend on using /SK-INFLUX® V / INCI (PCPC name)
Ceramide NP; Ceramide AP; Ceramide EOP;
Phytosphingosine; Cholesterol; Sodium Lauroyl
Lactylate; Carbomer; Xanthan Gum …
As the source of my ceramides.  Does this preblended package meet the above listed requirements….meaning take cholesterol….is that included at the proper ration to achieve peak performance of this ceramide package?

Regarding polyglyceryl emulsifiers…. does this require a micro emulsion for enhanced efficacy, or is it as simple as enhancing the overall package with a polyglyceryl?  Here is a list of ones that are readily available to me.  Any recommendations?

polyglyceryl-3 stearate
polyglyceryl-4 laurate
Polyglyceryl-4 oleate

or

Is there a gold standard…I should be chasing in that category.  Those were just the easy access…form a quick shipping supplier.

Thank You

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Perry said:

My thoughts…

If we assume that these esters do enhance penetration, so what?

What will you be able to measure to demonstrate that enhancing penetration lead to some additional benefit?

For that matter, what do you measure to demonstrate that ceramides themselves actually provide a substantial benefit beyond what a moisturizer can do?

I feel like people are being mislead and buying into marketing hype of ingredients without stepping back and asking the basic question, does it really do anything noticeable?

That’s perfectly fine for consumers who want to buy products that provide hope in a bottle. But from a scientific standpoint these are the kinds of things I would want to know.

Because if the answer is “we don’t see any noticeable difference” you’re spending a lot of time trying to optimize something that doesn’t need to be optimized.

This is why raw material suppliers love me lol

I appreciate your thoughts and perspective.  If my goals were to maximize profits and simplify formulas, you are an invaluable asset.

However…. that is not my focus.  I have made enough money for this lifetime.  If there is a company I model…it would be a hybrid of Newman’s Own.  I am at the place in my life…where I am giving back…. making the lives of people with certain conditions a better place.  I think you are aware that I work in conjunction with one of the chemist on this site, who has a similar outlook on life.

So if someone that knows me well were to describe me….the word ‘anal’ would certainly be part of the dialogue.  So do I think 99% of the people would notice the effect of ceramides in to context of an elegant formula?….Heck no.  But that is not what I am after.  I am chasing that last (and undetectable) 2%, that might give benefit.  Not because they will feel it…because they won’t, but because it might make how they feel (over time) in their own skin, and their world….a better place.  The chemist and I work very hard to bring all aspects of the formula together to a single point, and maximizing every aspect down to the last detail.  This absolutely includes the placebo effect, which is powerful powerful medicine.  The funny thing is….you can do all these things…and still offer the end result at a fair price….once you knock out the 100, 200, 300% profit margins.  Not saying I work for free… but my payment is based more on changing people’s lives for the better.

So in a nutshell….I do chase all those little nuances that are completely undetectable, but that I believe might have even the slightest chance of making someone’s life….a better place.  And yes….the right combination of anal formulator and genius chemist…magic can happen.

Thank you very much for providing the platform and forum.  I am forever in your debt.

Aloha.

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I saw another study that claimed lecithin also enhanced the penetration of ceramides.  Can I just kill all the birds with one stone…and use Heliofeel?

INCI

Glyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin

BTW: I used Heliofeel the first time, and it did not hold the formula together, so went back to a 165 based system and it did fine.  However I could use Heliofeel as a co emulsifier for the 165 system.

Due to the end goal of this formula…I also use glyceryl oleate as well.

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Hehehe….that is almost mean…not telling us where one can buy them.  

I am a fragrance fanatic….so I will toss out my go to fragrance… This simply means…the most people like it…and the fewest possible people…dislike it.

Ginger and Lime….from Nurture Soap

another all around popular one…especially among Korean’s has surprisingly been:

Balsam and Cedar…from Nature’s Fragrance.

One of my personal favorites …. but this will be a product…where maybe 30% of people will love it…mostly men:

Tobacco and Vanilla… from Bulk Apothecary…(a company I despise doing business with.)

@RedCoast 

Oh…and on the topic of vanilla fragrance…. Vanilla Lace…from New Directions Aromatics….is hypnotic! 

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em88 said:

Foldable label?

Anyone know a online US printer that makes these?  Would be nice if it came pre-folded with the adhesive.  Might fit on the bottom of the jar.  Is there no allowance for a sperate but included INCI?

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Abdullah said:

There are patents that show they have niacinamide at pH 4 and below. You can check them.

Thank you.  I currently use it at 4.8 pH w/o issue.  But that only tells me it is not disturbing the emulsion.  I was curious if was having a negative effect on availabiulity….at that 4.8 mark.  I know things start to happen at much lower pH, but that is not really a concern for my use.
I think at the use rate I am using (2%), even a loss of 10% would be more than acceptable.

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CB007 said:

No chelator- as requested by client

Cetyl Alcohol, Stearic Acid for emulsifiers…plus the Carbomer for water phase thickening.  

Is client smart enough to know what a chelator does for the formula?  Do they know about options like GLDA or sodium phytate?  I can understand not wanting EDTA…..but sometimes the formulator has to step in and educate the client?  (Maybe that is just me.)

Was 6.5 pH really the target?  

Cetyl alcohol and Stearic assist with making an emulsion stable…but in who’s book are the primary emulsifiers?  And there are so many decent ones now days….that are considered….’natural’.   

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You did not state the pH.
What are you using as the chelate?
Did you list your emulsifier?
I would not suspect…stearic acid.  (But I would not include that much in anything I wanted to feel nice.)

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You could sure start with the first line!

Is this the full formula?  Looks like (important) things are missing!

After you fix the first line…then you can start tweaking…. like switch the fatty alcohols to less unctuous feeling ones, like  behenyl….add some absorption enhancers….consider some starch…etc.

Personally that much dimethicone feels oily to me.  But that is just me.  I would cut it at least 50%.  Put it on your skin neat….see what you think.

Might help…if you said what kind of lotion…or the goal of the lotion.

If you include oily/greasy feeling ingredients in your formula, it is quite the task to remove that feeling.  The easiest way…is don’t include them to begin with, or include them at amounts that don’t make the product feel greasy.

Put your ingredients on your skin neat…and you will know which ones give the undesirable feel.

[Graillotion]

Sometimes GLDA is hard to find…so I’ll include a link:

TSGD (Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate)-STA-TSGD-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

I like that one, because it comes as a liquid, and is one less powder I have to wonder if it went into solution.  (Since this one is only about 50% active ingredient…I would not hug the bottom end of use rate….but around .2% at least.

If you are only making for yourself…and using within a very short amount of time….you can get by without chelators.  But if you ever aspire to sell anything, might as well get used to formulating with them.

[Graillotion]

EDTA is a chelator….so it does not have to be exactly EDTA, there are a number of options that do about the same thing.

A more natural approach to chelating would be things like GLDA or Sodium phytate.

But yes….chelates are very important, on multiple levels.

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Check the search bar.

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Never mind….I found it, along with episode #1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7rIdimJZi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij2D209Y4K0

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justaerin said:

There’s a new one today! These are great!

For those of us that don’t know where to find this….can you include a link?  

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Awesome input.

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Farrukh said:

Tell me about the percentage of sodium metabisulfite to use in soap and others

I don’t make or work with soaps… So I do not know the rate for that type of product, however they are used at very low rates….

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Oh…totally spaced out on another one I use… @pma

Amino Acid n-acetyl cysteine, aka: NAC.

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Awesome to put a face with a name.  I have gotten some great tips from Matt in the past couple of years!

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@Perry, is it still legal to add Cholecalciferol to a cosmetic emulsion in the USA?  I can still find Vitamin D creams on Amazon and such.

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zetein said:

It was banned.

In the US?  I know it was in the EU.

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Search bar in upper right side of the screen works pretty well.

[Graillotion]

Any fatty alcohol.

All will impart a different feel, so you’ll have to sample through them until you find one you like the best.

Also consider the polymeric emulsifiers…like Aristoflex AVC…they impart a gel undertone…that makes things feel good.