[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Tropolone may be a simple add in for A. Brasiliensis.

This data is from supplier but 0.005% tropolone with ~1% phenoxyethanol is a patented preservative. So it may really be effective that’s why they have patented it.

Thank you, Abdullah….now you have me scouring the net for Tropolone.  Ok group… As I go through the Symrise preservative collection, they have two products that gets their top marks in both categories of bacteria’s and yeast/mold.  One, the Phenoxy/Tropolone (aka SymOcide® PT)  mentioned….and then a little to my surprise, this combo: 1,2-Hexanediol,
Caprylyl Glycol,
Tropolone (aka SymDiol® 68T).  I use the first two as part of every formula (that good old hurdle thing).  Does this sound like a logical…top shelf combination, assuming one does all the other due diligences of formulating?  @Phi@PhilGeis, @MarkBroussard, @chemicalmatt

Aloha

[Graillotion]

And works as a chelate to boot?

Tropolone is a new one to me…but I see that Symrise is using it.

@Pharma , you got some fall blooming crocus extract we can make to cover this?   (Or will the Swiss only use Edelweiss?)

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Thank you all for your input, @PhilGeis, @MarkBroussard, @chemicalmatt.  I have no intent on using this product… As Mark described….I use a highly regimented hurdle approach, and proven preservatives.

I simply want to understand things…and be able to have an educated conversation with people that think these are acceptable alternatives.  Trying to make the world a safer place…one skin care product at a time.   

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

FYI:  This preservative is quite expensive relative to its analogs Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate and has to be used a high percentage and getting it shipped in from Germany just adds to the problem with using it.

Am I understanding you to say…. had Evonik used Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate in the same test…about the same result would be expected???  Or a better result would be hoped for?

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MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

Almost certainly this would not pass a PET, but when they say “used alone” it’s hard to put that in context.  Does “used alone” mean the emulsion contained only the Dermosoft without chelating agents and other preservative boosters (ie: without a hurdle technology approach) or do they mean it is the only presevative used in the emulsion, but it also includes chelating agents and preservative boosters.  The panel of microorganisms tested against in the graphs are the orgaisms used in the USP 51 PCT.

A. Brasiliensis is one of the most difficult organisms to preserve against and you can see that the GMCY had some positive effect, but not substantial enough.  Plus, GMCY really blows the viscosity of your emulsion.

FYI:  This preservative is quite expensive relative to its analogs Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate and has to be used a high percentage and getting it shipped in from Germany just adds to the problem with using it.

Thank you Mark….and yes…I noted the high inclusion rate!

BTW…just for fun….what would be a simple add-in…that is an effective catch for A. Brasiliensis…. Or is there one.  (As devil’s advocate…staying with a semi-natural theme.) 

Aloha.

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MarkBroussard said:

Use Sodium Stearate … it’s less that joyful to work with, particularly for a highly competitive product category with low margins, but if you have your mind set on it, view it as a learning experience.

Thank you for you input Mark.  If there was one thing that popped up over and over…it was SS!  However, I keep finding comments about it being irritating to skin, and lacking in elegance.

At this point…I have no plan on selling this product…just something for me and a few friends… So how would you say…. money is no object…and haptics will be everything.  If I’m giving it away…it better feel da&$m good.   

Any experience using inputs from Penreco?

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ngarayeva001 said:

@Pharma thank you! This is so cool!! I thought it just used in deodorants

It will be a cornerstone of our next deodorant project…hehehe…  

But Chemical Matt turned me on to TEC way back when… I was making mosquito lotion….and needing to extend fragrance/solubilize EO’s. 

Now that I am using a lot of HydroVance….I am also using TEC in about everything. 

Such a diverse ingredient…can’t live without it now.

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Not my area of expertise….but I would assume at some point the answer will relate to how much you are trying to chelate….. Water quality…or other ingredients that might bring something to the table that needs to be chelated.  If you have a pristine ingredient list…I would assume less can be used…than an ingredient list that is bring a lot of chelation needs.

Again…I am no expert…just seems like there might be some logic there.

[Graillotion]

INCI?

Xanthan?

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PhilGeis said:

Do not presume you need less due to MIC.   You should use a generally effective level in each application.

What do you think of that combo as a preservative?  I don’t use that product…but I do use all three of those ingredients (plus others) in my formulas….(plus all the other hurdles).

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kconley said:

I am making a gel mask. I notice in the Making Cosmetics Recipe book he uses sodium gluconate at .2%  in their formulas as a stabilizer. Can I use Dermafeel PA as a stabilizer? .  Can I skip it? Also, MC has an emulsifier called ICE SILICONE ( cetyl alcohol, sodium polyacrylate, poly 80, glyceryl stearate, dimethicone, divinyldimethicone/silsequioxane crosspolymer). I don’t want to buy more stuff. Any suggestions for other emulsfiers? This is for an overnight mask. No PVA in it. Pretty much he is using botanicals. 

Either chelate will work as long as you do not have conflicting ingredients elsewhere in the formula.  Do not leave a chelate out if the formula contains water.

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vitalys said:

@Graillotion I would play with Olive squalane wax - it should be rewarding in the stick formulations (Don’t confuse with Olive wax, which is just hydrogenated olive oil) 
Re: Triclosan. As soon as our laboratory has recently looked for Triclosan efficient and safe replacement, we studied O-Cymen-5-Ol. This ingredient has become a leader in tests, including “sniff tests”. It shows excellent deodorizing efficacy at 0.1-0.3%. If you couple it with Triethyl citrate, Ethylhexylglycerin and Trehalose you will achieve even more pronounced effect. 

Thank you.  Triethyl citrate was of course on the list…O-Cymen-5-Ol and the latter two are new to my concept.  I will look into them.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

BTW…as I am going through formulas on ULP…I keep coming across Triclosan….are they still using that?  (Or are these just old formulas?)

[Graillotion]

Try searching triethyl citrate in relation to urea….that might get you on a path.   (And use the lactic acid.)

Since you did not list the formula…difficult to give any better kind of answer.  Do you have some liquid diol/polyol as part of the formula?

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MarkBroussard said:

Nothing special in there that would act as deodorizers except the Silver Citrate and to a lesser extent Tea Tree Oil.  Perhaps some components of the Fragrance provide additional boost.

@Graillotion … if it works for you w/o having to use deodorant, good.

I am NOT one of the super stinky types….just hyper aware of my own body odors.  So this one is effective enough…that it takes care of my needs.

I have in my mind to make a body wash or more likely a deodorant, as that is the commercial product that scares me the most.  Not for sale…just for personal use.  So Yes, Triethyl citrate (which I already use quite often) and a small laundry basket of other ingredients are starting to manifest themselves….but as always…I am looking for that silver (said tongue in cheek) bullet.   

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Here is the full INCI.

Does anyone see something magical here (for odor control)?  I am unfamiliar with the last two ingredients…and have not searched them yet.

There is  ‘fragrance’, so possibility of some hidden ingredients.

@MarkBroussard
@PhilGeis
@ketchito
@Microformulation

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Cdsgames said:

I am not taking about gelling . The water activity is reduced by humectants and yes HA has good water binding property (along with NA PCA that is known to reduce water activity)

 

You did not understand his response.  He was kindly saying….HA does not bind water as you are thinking it does….it gells it….Not the same!

[Graillotion]

Urea will cause drift.

Does this product feel good to you?

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Shams said:

@Graillotion I’ll try a chelating agent
My preservative is a blend of Methylpropanediol, caprylyl glycol and phenyl propanol .
As for green tea, I use it as an antioxidant , but I can definetly try to take it out

Appreciate the advice

Absolutely take it out….there are a myriad of good antioxidants. 

Maybe @PhilGeis can evaluate your preservation system.

[Graillotion]

Did you do a knock out with green tea?  (And why the heck is it in there?  Drink it while making the lotion…but don’t get it in the lotion!)

A chelate is just basic formulating.  Yes it will help in every regard, but maybe not with the yellowing…but it might.

Shoot for 4.8 pH…that will take you out of the bug zone.

Your preservative program looks sketchy…did you leave something out???

[Graillotion]

mikeylamar said:

I have a question regarding silicones, dimethicone
in particular. I want to buy a silicones specifically for skincare lotions.
There are many different types of Dimethicones available and I was wondering
what the differences were between them and which ones are the industry standard
in cosmetic skincare. I wanted to buy Dimethicone 350 or 1000 but it seems like
the global silicone shortage has affected supply.

·        DM350
Dimethicone

·        Dimethicone
1000

·        DM6
Dimethicone

·        Lotioncrafter
EL40

·        Cyclomethicone
(and) Dimethicone – to my understanding Cyclomethicone is mainly used in
haircare as it’s better for rinse off products

Also, how do silicones compare to natural
alternatives such as olive derived ester or something like Coco
Caprylate/Caprate. As it’s naturally derived, will it eventually absorb into
the skin?

Additional question: I have seen niacinamide
supplements sold online for much cheaper. Is it okay to use this type of
niacinamide in skincare products? My concern is that it may contain
nicotinamide, which I don’t know how beneficial this is in skincare.

It would have been helpful…had you stated the purpose of the dimethicone and possible alternatives…. So I’ll try and read your mind…and take a stab at it.

I will assume one of the main things you were trying to accomplish…was to alleviate soaping.  @chemicalmatt is of course spot on…with the Dimethicone 350 as being the ideal choice.  It can do at .3-.5%…what the alternatives will do less well with 5%.  I have gone down that route early on….and there are no true alternatives….just lesser poser’s trying to unthrone the king.

I have found on the ultra lite products I make…even the lite olive type esters…add an unwanted oiliness, and do not add half the haptics that something like Isoamyl Laurate would bring to the formula.

IMHO…cyclomethicone is a beautiful beast unto itself… mix this with the proper polymerics, pentylene glycol…and cyclomethicone…and heaven awaits.  Texturally….feels nothing like dimethicones to me.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

Re. X-gum + Sclerotium synergy and Siligel/Ecogel 

VeGelPlus (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Carrageenan (and) Silica) by KimiKa has the gum synergy blend suggested above, and has a phospholipid (I do very much like the skinfeel of phospholipids). Not a chemist, so I’m not sure how Silica plays with the gums and the phospholipids here  (any thoughts?)

Has anyone tried this ingredient?

I wonder if this could be THE synergy. I just came across this ingredient, so I haven’t tried it yet, but I will try to get a sample and report back. 

Pretty sure the silica in there…as the last ingredient….is more of an anti-caking mechanism (nothing you could ever hope to feel).

I use numerous similar texturizers (silica) with gums…and they play fine together.  I should say my gum group never exceeds .25%.  My silica like texturizers are often around 1.5%.

Aloha

[Graillotion]

Are you using a chelate?  And why keep you pH in the ‘Bug hot zone’?

[Graillotion]

Probably can’t get a good answer without the other ingredients.  Many use niacinamide without this issue…so sounds like an interaction.  Can not determine that without other inputs.

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Cosmetic76 said:

hi yes I have. I agree it feels more airy and I quite like it. however unfortunately everyone I asked to test it said the cream feels like there’s candle wax on their hands after it absorbs. Would you have an idea how to make it feel less waxy? Suppose a bit more wet? I tried all sorts, olivwax, brassica alcohol, etc.. 

Yes….OliveM 1000 is a very ….hmmmn…. not real nice feeling emulsifier.  However I have found I can use it at 1% (in water phase) to give a very light feeling emulsion I make,…feel heavier and richer…but beyond 1% of a total package, I find it intolerable.

To make your emulsion feel wetter…add about 2% Pentylene glycol, and at least 1% cyclomethicone.  Also adding a polymeric like Aristoflex AVC, which can help with the ‘fast break’ effect.

You mentioned you had tried Montanov 202…and I think you said it was sticky.  I would suspect that is the balance of your formula…Not the M 202.  It makes delightful lite, emulsions.  If you are open to it…a 165 emulsifier would be a good one to try.  It does not thicken much…so you have to thicken it.

Mont 68 is the heaviest of the Montanov’s I tried.  I do not use it.

You also mentioned isoamyl laurate….that would have been a good choice to help reduce stickiness.  I use it at 5-6% of most formulas…and supplement it with about 4% of additional similar items to make delightful textures.