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Bingo… @MarkBroussard is spot on…if they even mention preservation, then they are HIGHLY inclined to spike it.

The INCI’s are irrelevant as none of the guilty parties have EVER listed their transgressions on the INCI.

The only thing I can hope for in a supplier with integrity, and the less they promise, the more likely I am to find what I am after.

Thank you, Mark, for the list of suppliers, I will look into them.

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@Karo_lina that was from ULP, if you are not a member, the links won’t open for you.

But try this:  Ashland | optiphen™ plus preservative

Any google search of opiphen plus will give you the same information….the working pH range.

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Newtoformulating said:

Ok. My main preservative is optiphen plus and one of my ingredients has a preservative within it, Benzoic Acid. Thanks for responding 

The Optiphen plus needs a pH below 6 for all aspects to function.

The preservatives included in ingredients, only preserve that product prior to blending.  In this case, it also has no effect at the new higher pH.

 So, you are only using Phenoxyethanol, and Caprylyl Glycol.  I think most here would believe that to be a bit of a weak system.

If you want the acid aspect to kick in…you need to lower your pH below 6.  (And this is a VERY good thing.)  

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Microformulation said:

Wow, did I warp back to 2005?

Back then there were GSE extracts that were “certified” to be pure and “free” from the adulterants. Lines would demand to use this form and the PET tests all failed.

In the almost 2 decades since then, the Raw Material providers have stepped up and provided so many better alternatives which are more effective.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh…. PLEASE don’t think I am using this as a preservative… (I thought I had a tiny bit of respect here…but maybe I am wrong. )

Just want to try it in my deo formula.  

Aloha… (And yes, a patent on that concept.)

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@Syl , it is well known that they add ingredients that will enhance the preservation qualities, so that those that think it is a viable natural preservative will not be disappointed.  However, in trying to evade detection, they often use some less than desirable ingredients.

I am looking for pure GSE, and suspect it does not exist?

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Use the search bar, and enter the word ‘soaping’.

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What was the preservative….and how much did you use?

You need to provide lots of information with your question.

And yes, some preservatives can destabilize an emulsion.  You should also include what you are emulsifier you are using.

What type of hardware did you use, to make the emulsion? 

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Where did you get the suspect one?  Suppliers have well known reputations.    Sounds like they colored it, and scented it…hehehe I know of one company…that is the mode of apprendi.

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Thank you all.

I have concluded the way forward is to blend behenyl with MM.

Aloha.

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I’m with Perry…just look at adding sodium PCA, or sodium lactate or glycerin, or propanediol…and a compatible gelling agent.  I get good mileage out of betaine…and a soother to boot.

Of course, you have the option of adding it at .001%…whooping and hollering it on the label….and doing the dirty work with a functional.  

Aloha.

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No mention of pH?

Are your clay’s irradiated? 

Do you have a chelate?  (I’ll be interested to hear what the chemist have to say…with clays and chelates.)

Following.

(Sounds like your chemist already knows how to solve the problem….except I would have but an ‘and’ between them, not a ‘or’.)   

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Syl said:

In my experience, some vendors are not following shipping rules. When I buy lactic acid or sodium hydroxide in large quantities, some vendor will charge a hazmat fee, some do not.  

The new vendor went WAY out of their way to explain that this version of D5 could be shipped USPS (and it was selected for this reason) …and posted the flash point on the front page.  So I think in this case…. they are not in any type of violation…(which I would not care about anyway….I just can’t live without my D5…hehehe.).  I am just trying to figure out…how different D5’s…can have different flash points….my mind is not yet wrapping around the concept.

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chemicalmatt said:

IF you are  formulating with urea, DO NOT premix it, there is no need, it readily dissolves and is a weak electrolyte at best . Always add it directly to the batch during the cooling phase after heating/combining phases in an o/w emulsion for the same reason you state: it dissolves in water endothermically and will cool your batch as it dissolves. No ethanol is needed but a buffer is. Use lactic acid/sodium lactate at pH 5.5 - 6.0 or add rice starch, the more natural means of stabilizing urea.

I was tracking …. until you got to the rice starch.  Could you elaborate on that?  Mode of action….purpose…etc.  I am interested now…as I have a big pile of it.     (Since all my formulas use a kiss of starch, I will probably switch them all over to rice starch.)  I also have a number of formulas using HydroVance.  But I have always paired them up with triethyl citrate, and lowered pH with lactic acid…and is some formulas…also include sodium lactate.

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Pharma said:

@chemicalmatt Why are people so often promoting lactic acid / sodium lactate as a buffer for urea? It’s no longer buffering at that pH range, let alone preventing the product from a rise in pH which is the main issue with urea.

What are you suggesting as an alternative @Pharma ?  Triethyl citrate?  Or, none needed?  (After lowering pH with lactic acid… 4.8 to 5.2 range generally.)

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion I am the same way - out of these 50 samples I’ll be happy if I can come away with one good one. I usually combine 2-4 and make a custom blend. 

Did you get anything good?

I sent you PM.

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And some of us….use both.  

I use a low rate upon arrival….and then the same low rate…at time of formulation.

I also refrigerate all my oils…. but I’m a little nuts.

Some oils, like meadowfoam and Jojoba liquid wax…I just don’t bother with.

Aloha.

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Listing the country you live in…always helps.

As far as beakers, Pyrex off of Amazon is hard to beat.

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I would like to thank all the genius minds that have contributed to this project, you know who you are!  Sometimes it takes a village, to make something special.  I have a good sense on how to create texture/haptics…but there are so many other aspects!!!

Vitaly, you have simply been brilliant in making the product function!  Aloha.

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A lot of the information I get, is sent directly to me…and some of this material is absolute pearls of wisdom from genius minds.  I would like to share the ramblings of one such genius:

My guess (I don’t know!) would be that behenyl results in a drier feeling product and MM in a softer one which probably absorbs better (with the end result being drier because no longer there, if you know what I mean).
From a logical point of view: 165 might play better with MM with regard to forming a lamellar network. 165 tends to weaken or even destroy the lamellar network of the Montanovs and MM alongside the laurates might actually fix that issue. At least hypothetically…
On the other hand, lauryl laurate is fairly similar to MM and including both might be redundant. Maybe just let it be and play with some other ingredients if you’re not happy with the dryness of the outcome? I doubt that adding a wax ester or a fatty alcohol will counteract the non-dry feeling of slip and slide ingredients. Quite the opposite; they might actually disturb their fast resorption which, as stated in the beginning, would be another form of dry feeling. Cut down on occlusive lipids, reduce overall lipid load and get the lost viscosity back by increasing starches and gelling agents.

If only my mind thought like this….what I could accomplish.  Thank You (Danke Danke schoen Danke vielmal Danke/merci)

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For those following along at home, an update.  (Please understand all that I will say falls under the auspices of ‘formula specific’.)  So, I made the same formula, subbing the behenyl alcohol with the same amount of Myristyl Myristate.  As I was chasing a dry application and powdery after feel (from a cream), it was a ‘no contest’, clear winner.  Myristyl Myristate kicked the arsh of Behenyl in making a dry finish, quicker absorbing feeling deo cream.

(Note: This ingredient only made up 1.15% of the formula yet had a palpable result change.)

I did however lose a noticeable amount of viscosity, so will have to increase the MM to match the desired viscosity.

Sidebar: Per a recommendation from Matt, I switched from Arrowroot to Rice Starch, and there was a detectable enhancement of the haptics.

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Matt @chemicalmatt , my add in fatty alcohol level is only 1.15% to get the viscosity I want (CP at 1.8%).  So not much to hold things back.  Slippery stuff  above 17%.

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Thank you @Abdullah and @chemicalmatt !  I always pair my Montanov emulsions with a 165 type emulsifier (and an anionic).  I also always use a polymeric, a dusting of Solagum AX and a kiss of Glycerol oleate (more for the refatting).

Matt, the formula has lots…and lots of slip and slides (can you say… ‘laurates’…. my good friends lauryl and isoamyl…hehehe)….the poorest of which is CCT, and finished with my fav….a big kiss of cyclopentasiloxane (and two other silicone friends).  I did sub in the rice starch, and was able to achieve a nominal enhancement over the arrowroot.

I will make the deo cream later today using MM in place of the behenyl, and get it out to the test groups this weekend.

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Does a blend of MM and Behenyl…create something drier than using one or the other?

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Add a little heat to the water phase…and I think your allantoin will go right in….as long as you do not exceed the rate it can contain.  You should be able to then let it cool, and it will stay (again…as long as you did not exceed the rate it can hold…If I recall correctly, .56% of the water).

I have been working on a non-irritating deo cream….with soothers….and I used the above two mentioned items…and Betaine…is another to consider, and it has come out as nice as I had hoped.

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Dtdang said:

Paprik!  I use pH meter to measure the pH of hempseed oil directly after calibrate pH meter.
Retinol is soluble in oils and it takes about 25 minutes to soluble in oils. The final pH of oil phase is 4.0. After oil & water phase are emulsified, pH of the cream is 5.0.
My question: during 25 minutes retinol is in the pH of 4.00, retinol is still good or bad ? because it is stable with pH = {4.5, 8}

Thank Paprik.

Your pH meter does not have an option…to NOT give a reading…. So it just spits something out.

Just wave it around in the air….and you’ll get the pH of air.