[Graillotion]

Texture…will always be subjective.  What I like best…won’t always be what you or your client likes best.

Here is what I do…. Take just water, and the polymerics you have on hand…and make blends…both with other polymerics…and as polymeric plus carbomer blends….and sample those gels on your skin (neat).  You will have a favorite.  Don’t be surprised to find 5, 6 or 7 little bowls of gel in front of you….when the trial starts.  

As far as Aristo and Carbomer…yes, I and others believe there is a (textural) synergy there.  Try 3, 4 and 5 parts Aristo with 1 part carbomer.  I use a pre-neutralized carbomer…so these experiments can be created is a matter of a couple of minutes.

Regarding the gums on hand…as long as you keep inclusion rates low….as Perry likes to say….no one (other than me) is gonna notice.   

[Graillotion]

Easy one to answer:

Imagine a formula….create a water phase with correct ratios…making sure to include all possible antagonist.  Then mix in your Aristoflex AVC…and you will pretty much instantly….(not more than a minute)…see if they are getting along.  (No need to make the oil phase…or the emulsion…just see what happens in the water phase.)

Maybe make just a batch of water and Aristoflex…in correct formula ratios…so you have something to compare against (viscosity and texture).

Luckily Pharma taught me that…the disagreement will show itself instantly….vs something that manifests itself 6 months down the road.

And let me tell you….if they disagree….you have nothing! (No guessing)  This is why you do NOT make the full emulsion…as it might hide the fact the AVC is not functioning. 

(Anything with the word ‘sodium’ in the name (item 2 & 3)…is probably gonna give it grief, unless using very small amounts.)  I can pretty well assure you…….AVC will probably not work in the formula as listed.   Zen might handle that…but you could try the same test parameters.

I think among the commonly used polymerics…Zen has some of the better tolerances.  It does git a bit gross above .5%, so you can use it at .4-.45% and add some Solagum AX at .25% and get a nice result.

[Graillotion]

If you are aware of a re-packer that sells the (L15) C15-19
Alkane…let me know.

[Graillotion]

That question cannot be answered…without knowing the pH (as your system is pH dependent.) 

[Graillotion]

The Magic…is usually… Marketing.  

[Graillotion]

I have never noticed a smell on IL, even at 100% neat.

Make sure you are using the 100% IL.  Early on, I got a sample of 90% IL, and something else…and that was just god-awful.  (Forget the name.)

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

@Graillotion: Beautiful!  That’s just it. Thank you for sharing the fruits of your holy grail quest.

I’m also obsessed with texture. I create many many many versions of an emulsion to get the skin feel just right. The emulsifier also  plays a big role, and the gum (s). It’s a whole symphony.

I find that Brassica Alcohol gives a lovely texture in combination with a cast of emollients with different absorption rates. 

I learned about cascading emollients from SwiftCraftyMonkey (Susan Barclay Nichols)’s cosmetic blog. She has a whole 8-part series on this. Well worth the very modest monthly membership fee. I highly recommend her blog.  https://www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog/

As for distarch phosphate, yes, lovely feel. Skinchakra has several formulations using this ingredient (on her old blog:  Swetti’s Beauty Blog           https://skinchakra.eu/blog/

Anyway, here is a helpful chart that illustrates this concept. 

Hehe…. If I could get things where I like them in 30 iterations…I would feel like I did not do my due diligence…  

Where do you purchase brassica alcohol in the US?  I have had it as part of some other things…but never by itself.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

I view phenethyl alcohol…as a ‘go to’ head space preservative.  Meaning…I create a respectable preservation hurdle program, and if I have a product that needs head space preservation…the phenethyl gets added to the existing program.

 @Anca_Formulator   The easiest way I find it….is when I am on a site where I hope they sell it….just type ‘alcohol’ into the search bar….and granted you’ll get a number of products you’ll have to sort through…but at least you find where they hid the phenethyl…hehehe.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

I am having trouble finding Phenethyl Alcohol. @Graillotion I saw one of your older posts re. the other synonyms it may hide under, but still didn’t find it (I haven’t tried all of them yet though). I’m in the US, where did you have luck finding it at times?

It is available even on Amazon:  Amazon.com: Phenethyl Alcohol 120ml (4oz) High Purity Fragrance/Aroma Compound : Home & Kitchen

But I have mostly gotten it here:  Perfumers Apprentice - Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol

or if you want to order some exotic…hard to find ingredients…and are ordering from the Thai place: Phenethyl Alcohol, Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol (myskinrecipes.com)

As it is a huge part of fragrance making…any perfume supplier should carry it.  Funny though…sometimes hard to find on their sites….cus of so many spelling variations…and if you don’t guess theirs just right….you may think they don’t have it.

How is this for a synonym list  (This might not be accurate…not my list…and I did not double check it. )??? : ชื่ออื่นๆ: (2-hydroxyethyl)benzene, 1-phenyl-2-ethanol, 2-hydroxyethyl benzene, 2-hydroxyethylbenzene, 2-phenethyl alcohol, 2-phenyl ethan-1-ol, 2-phenyl ethanol, 2-phenyl ethyl alcohol, 2-phenylethanol, b-hydroxyethylbenzene, b-phenethanol, b-phenylethanol, b-phenylethyl alcohol, benzene ethanol, benzeneethanol, benzyl carbinol, benzyl methanol, beta-p.e.a., beta-phenyl ethanol, beta-phenyl ethyl alcohol, mellol, nat.phenyl ethyl alcohol, phenethyl alcohol nat., phenethyl alcohol natural, phenethyl alcohol turkey, natural isolated constituent, phenethylalcohol, phenethylol, phenyl ethanol, phenyl ethyl alcohol, phenyl ethyl alcohol extra, phenyl ethyl alcohol FCC, phenyl ethyl alcohol natural, phenyl ethyl alcohol USP 24, phenylethanol, phenylethanol nat, phenylethyl alcohol, phenylethyl alcohol (2-phenyl-1-ethanol), phenylethyl alcohol FCC, phenylethyl alcohol USP/NF

NOTE**  The Thai place charges the same freight for 1 gram to 500….so to maximize cost…try to order about 500 grams of different products.

[Graillotion]

Anca_Formulator said:

Hi, I was wondering what natural preservatives you find to be effective to preserve hydrosols once you open the bottle? This is a Geranium Hydrosol  with a pH of 4.26.

I used Germall in the past, but would like to give a natural preservative system a go. 

I know most suppliers of preserved hydrosols use Leucidal Liquid, but I’ve read that it is really not very effective. 

I’ve seen the suggestion of 0.05% citric acid + 0.15% postassium sorbate. Is this enough? 

I was thinking of using 1% Leucidal PE9010 + 1% Geogard Ultra + 3% natural Pentylene Glycol. Is this overkill?

Thank you. 

No point in adding leucidal…as that doesn’t do much…and brings some nasty adulterations to your product.  (They fail to list some of the goodies that put in that garbage.)

[Graillotion]

I have had the luxury of a number of amazing people spending enormous amounts of time to teach me some of the finer points of texture and even the perception of absorption.  One of my earliest lessons was how to create the depth of sensories via cascading emollience.  I would compare it to a 3D experience vs a 2D experience.  If you use a single emollient…even the ‘perfect’  one, you will get that 2D experience, and will not achieve the more satisfying sensory experience that one can accomplish with cascading emollience, that gives that little….ahhhh…or Eureka moment of an emulsion that finally got you to the next level.

I collected virtually every dry/light emollient I could get my hands on….but could not formulate them into my dreams.  However as I finally absorbed the mentoring bestowed on me, I learned to take emollients that did not seem as dreamy ‘neat’ and combine them into a sensory waterfall.  So I typically combine things like isoamyl laurate, IPM, lauryl laurate, Polymethylsilsesquioxane, D5 and waxy ester types like cetyl palmitate and myristyl myristate. 

Even the last two ingredients…I found if I split them, vs using twice as much of either one…I got a MUCH better absorbing result.

In my mind, to create that dry and emollient feel…it had to be some with the driest and lightest ingredients.  It was very difficult for me to understand that a group of emollients…absorbing at different rates…actually gave a more unique and pleasurable experience.  So with rather common emollients I have learned to surround them with teammates that brought out the best of them.  

Some of these ingredients can feel oily neat, and even make your skin shine.  I found it far easier to create a logical emollient waterfall, and then fix the shine and fine tune it with things like using behenyl alcohol instead of those that might start with ‘C’.  Myristyl Myristate is just an absolute ‘must’ for making things work for me.  Another finishing ingredient….that takes things to a level…that is almost breathtaking…is distarch phosphate.  I worked through a list of powders that can fill a room, during my deodorant project…and absolutely made a breakthrough when I came upon this Agrana product.  Another technique that I have recently mastered…is taking a porous, very fine silica, preloading it with D5, and putting this in post emulsion.  The silica is saturated with D5 in the emulsion…so does not take up other lipids.  Once it hits the skin, the D5 goes poof…..and you have very thirsty silica…looking to absorb a new host.  WOW…Eureka.

So in summary….at least for me…on my journey….it is not as much about finding that Eureka emollient….that would make dreams come true…but surrounding it with a cast of characters that could deliver the dream.  The perception of rapid absorption can be created with a cast of characters that do not all absorb at the speed of light.  The nuances you can create with distarch phosphate, certain silicas…can far outperform that ‘Holy Grail’ emollient you think you have not found yet.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Ethylhexyl Isononanoate, Isostearyl Isostearate, and Isonoyl Isononanoate were all good….

But I ended up back with Isoamyl laurate.

I discovered it is not the individual ingredient that matters most…but far more importantly is the group performance.  I will write out my thoughts…and post shortly.  I will try to gather coherent thoughts on cascading emollience, and how a combination of varying absorption rates will feel like it absorbs the best.

Aloha.

[Graillotion]

Abdullah said:

Of course some ionic surfactants help stability because of charge. 

Are you talking about Cetearyl alcohol + Ceteareth 20 or ceteareth 2 or so + Ceteareth 20 to go for HLB counting method? 

I am working with Cetearyl alcohol and ceteareth 20…. using GMS for the low end.

[Graillotion]

chemicalmatt said:

@Graillotion I’ve used that PG-3 stearate and GMS combo at 3:1 and it worked really well. Add just a small amount of ceteareth-20 for extra stabilizing and you should be good to go. Also, using the GMS-SE will help this too.

Do you feel that a small amount of anionic like either SSG or GSC would make these emulsions even more stable….or does that just make for a long INCI?

[Graillotion]

I doubt you will find much luck in what you are looking for on this site, as you have mistakenly tangled with one of the most brilliant PhD’s you’ll ever come across (a true PhD among PhD’s).  Sometimes the ignorant mistakes brilliance for something else.

Good Luck.

[Graillotion]

I saw that study, probably on the same site you saw it.  I ran out of time…or I was gonna post part of that as a ‘comedy piece’.

Someone is selling 20% Algae and 80% glycerin, as a premium humectant….but it scores about 20% lower than just glycerin.  Made me giggle all day. 

[Graillotion]

To help you understand Gordof’s explanation…. ALL formula discussions are done in Celsius (so you really through him for a loop with the F reference), and weights in metric. 

Perry does offer some formulating courses. 

[Graillotion]

samsal said:

Graillotion said:

Don’t know the answer to your question…but you’re going to need a real preservative.  Even with the unlisted (adulterations) ingredients that company uses, those products are WEAK.

What would be considered a “real” preservative?

“Real” preservatives are ones that work.    Here is a beginning link:  The best cosmetic preservatives - Chemists Corner

There are many additional tools available on this site if you search.

Happy formulating. 

[Graillotion]

Don’t know the answer to your question…but you’re going to need a real preservative.  Even with the unlisted (adulterations) ingredients that company uses, those products are WEAK.

[Graillotion]

evchem2 said:

What phase are you adding the zinc oxide to- water or oil?  below pH 6 zinc oxide will start dissolving and you will have Zn ions in solution or new complexes which causes some formulation instability

Off topic….as I am looking at Zn options (deo) ….. would this same aspect be true with Zinc Citrate?  (Emulsified cream… with pH of 4.4.) 

[Graillotion]

helenhelen said:

Also try with the Montanov 202 in the oil phase rather than water phase.

Just curious…why this recommendation?  Do you find a haptic difference?  I have mostly used it in the water phase.

[Graillotion]

Mfg directions for M 202 is 85 C.  (Do not force cool these emulsifiers)

As Pharma said, too much shear…can cause issues.  

I use M 202, and never more than 2 min shear, while HOT.

Many products take 48 hours to mature.  Do not evaluate until that point.

(I think you did not melt your M 202.  Taking it to 85C…I think you’ll get a different result.

[Graillotion]

MarkBroussard said:

@Graillotion

You have to be careful with repackers such as Making Cosmetics as they often change the order of the ingrdients in listing the INCI.  I am assuming this may be a requirement of the manufacturer, but who knows.

Your best bet is to contact Koster Keunen directly and ask for a compositional breakdown … it may not be any more illuminating than what you got from MC, but at least it will be directly from the source.

I was aware that many times repackers are not allowed to use the real name of the product, but changing the INCI order?  If above 1%…that has an ‘illegal’ vibe?   

[Graillotion]

ggpetrov said:

Graillotion said:

ggpetrov said:

Abdullah said:

ggpetrov said:

I’ve just looked at my worksheet. 2% Softfeel PS +

What is the INCI on Softfeel PS.  I could not find that on ULP.

http://dir.gcimagazine.com/detail/inci.html?id=Polyglyceryl-3+Stearate

According to this site, there are two emulsifiers with this name. The first one is made from Kinetik Technologies, and the second one from Evonik. I guess that the one from the Dragonspice store is the Evonik’s one, because they sell a lot of Evonik’s products.

Got it!  Just straight up PG-3 stearate.

BTW….the one I linked….was pretty interesting.   (But not an emulsifier.)

[Graillotion]

I found a Cetiol Softfeel (without the PS)…with INCI of: 

C12-18 Alkanoyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer

Is this the one?