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Pattsi said:

 if I were to spin a questionable ingredient, I would create 100 likes and there I have an approval(ish) from professional chemist forum.

Factually correct button would also be potentially problematic. Whose fact will be correct, and in the next years time, is that fact will still be correct. 

I would like thank you button for individuals who give reasonable answers and can be display next to their names, there’re so many I want to thank.

Excellent points…all three of them.

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The salt curve is a bell curve…once you exceed optimum…then you lose viscosity.

Generally it is done in small increments…say .1% variations.  I would start with 1%..and work up and down from there…at the .1% variations.  Hehehe….and you can fill a thimble with what I know about this topic…hehehe.

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PhilGeis said:

To Graillotion’s point

Identification of Didecyldimethylammonium Salts and Salicylic Acid as Antimicrobial Compounds in Commercial Fermented Radish Kimchi

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jf5063588

Awwhhhh… Make um work for it.  

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If you put your science hat on for a moment….what is a ferment?  It is a system that favor’s a certain type of bacteria.  It is literally crawling with bacteria….just ones that produce lactic acid, which in turn creates a selective environment for a select group of residents.  So, KimChee is far from bacteria free… think cheese, yogurt etc.  They simply selected for bacteria that are not harmful when we consume them, and produce an acidic environment that the more harmful bacteria find inhospitable.  This system of course requires constant input of the excrement from the residents….lactic acid.

So the concept…is just … roll of the floor funny…when you try and apply it to cosmetics.  Friendly bacteria is cosmetics …. is a concept that is trying to find a foothold….but not there yet.

Of course, the Luecidal product….all the ‘good’ bacteria have been killed.  So, you have nothing left…but bacteria corpses and their excrement.  (And of course the preservatives they used to terminate the good bacteria.)

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vince said:

PhilGeis said:

Vince - curious the research that recommended those.  There not effective in anything.
Folks use  the same preservatives in human products - incl. isothiazolinones and formaldehyde releasers such as the Germall+ your colleague uses.  Look on labels.

I was looking at many different articles that talk about preservatives. I wanted to bring pet products to the market with more natural preservatives and leuicidal sf max seemed like a good one when combined, leuicidal is supposed to work as an antibacterial while amtcide coconut protects against yeast and mold.

Are there any other good preservatives, in your experience, that can compare to germall + without formaldehyde? 

Oh so funny…. thinking a dead ferment has ANY preservation qualities.  Maybe you could explain how a DEAD ferment can kill anything?  (The dead ferment…is just the distraction for the other ingredients hidden therein.  A generation before, the distraction was called Grapefruit seed extract.)

Actually….if you dig…and I’ll let you do that valuable (learning experience)… The ONLY aspect in that dead ferment that kills anything…is the ingredients they used to kill the ferment…and did not list on the ingredient panel (process exemption).

If you do not find the scientific information quickly…. I will link it tomorrow….but you should find it for yourself.  (Even if you use the search bar on this site…you’ll find what you need to find.)

[Graillotion]

Not an effective product for humans… What makes you think it will be for pets?

Best way to get rid of the cloudiness is to use a proven product.

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Lab 

• Oh! And I’ve noticed many problems with users’ location. We often don’t know where a person is located, so it’s harder to give concrete answers, especially about legislation and ingredients. If there was an indicator next to the user’s avatar that appears during discussions (and not just on the profile) it would be very useful!

Yes!!!!!!!! An optional flag (country) by the user name…would be wonderful…and sooooooooo helpful.

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seryou said:

@Graillotion I’ve tried adding it at the start and at the end. When it first happened the oil phase got up to 90°C and it still wasn’t melting (it was a small batch so a total of 21g of oil phase, and was being heated for a while). We’d break it up into smaller bits but they’d just clump together again without melting. I’ve been using the same batch and haven’t had this problem at all, its not expired either.

So I’m just a bit confused considering it melted perfectly fine in my previous prototype which was essentially the same formulation and was only made a few days prior.

I guess the next step would be to do a knock-out with the 

Undecane (and) Tridecane.

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@seryou are you adding the PL 68 at the end?  If so…even it you are at melting temp…it will take some time.  (If you add it prior to heating…then it will generally melt as expected, as you approach proper temp.)

Is this a new batch of PL 68?  Why don’t you do a two ingredient experiment…water or oil…what ever is easiest/cheapest….and just try melting a spoonful of the 68 in the liquid…and recording the melt point.  Maybe you have a batch….with say….an issue.  

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A couple things…. Even when I make 150 gram batches… there is a vast temperature difference between the top of the beaker and the bottom of the beaker.  If the bottom of the beaker (where your temp probe might be) shows 80….and you lift the probe near the surface…. it will often be 5-8C cooler.  In order for proper temperature dispersion….some stirring is required.  I also find that stirring helps to melt things much more efficiently.  So if you have not been stirring, and measuring near the top of the solution….try that.

Have you tried putting your PL 68 in the water phase?  I have always put that type of emulsifier in the water phase.  Just works better for me.

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RobboAU said:

As a first timer that has used the search feature many times, I find it particularly ineffective.

I’m hot for a like function on replies, but I do not think a dislike function will benefit this site.

I agree with your comments on the search bar.  I have learned to be VERY creative in the words I insert there.  You cannot use broad terms….and every word counts.  So, I use a word that is very unique to what I am looking for, and usually get what I want.

Correct….nothing but hurt feelings will result from a dislike button.  If you dislike something….then have the balls to defend it with your comments. 

[Graillotion]

C10-18 Triglycerides

Fun product to work with….simply change to inclusion rate, until you have the desired viscosity.  You can range from negligible all the way to butter.

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I like the ‘Like’ idea.  On most forum’s there is an abundance of….people who feel the world needs to see their comment….so they restate the obvious/redundant.  Here….if someone answers something correctly…we tend to let it be.  But for the author…they might be thinking….well…only one person said that (and I am conditioned to look for validation).  If you had the same comment…with 10 likes….the author will think….ah….good answer, that is supported by many others.

May I add…. so many first timers…ask the same age old questions….over and over.  If you could have something that really highlights the ‘search’ feature….how many times will be not have to say….baking soda does not belong in deo!   

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This will be simply a matter of opinion!

My opinion is… Solagum AX.

For me….the AMOUNT included is the biggie.  I never exceed 
.25% gum.  I pair gum/s with polymeric emulsifiers like Aristoflex AVC, and Zen, and a kiss of sodium carbomer…and you can make magic.

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Not surprising…as you don’t have any slippery ingredients.  Take a look at these three formulas…and see if you can find the missing link.  

Good luck.  Should be an ultra easy fix.

You will probably have it on hand…but CCT and lauryl laurate, and Isoamyl laurate, will quickly fix things.  But as you can see….you will have to use a fair amount of it.  (Same as any other cosmetic.)

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Well some wise-ass….messaged me…and said just read the technical papers and use Google translate to go from ‘English’ to ‘Laymen’. 

Merci / Misotra / danke schön

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GeorgeBenson said:

Ok thanks thats a good rule to go by. 

I get the btms-50 from lotioncrafter but im not sure who the manufacturer is. And the formulation guidelines on lotioncrafter for that particular ingredient are rather sparse.

Are you a member of UL Prospector?  You can always find EVERYTHING you need to know….there.  

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If you don’t want to bother looking up the mfg specs…. The basic formula is typically to heat it 5C past when the last ingredient is fully melted.

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I have an emulsified deo, that is at13%.  Not ideal….but it works.  Regarding the plant extracts….since they probably won’t be doing anything anyway…you can sure get away with adding them earlier.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding…. You will know when it is too much….when it no longer works (stable).  

And if you do take it too far….there are even ways around that…with a proper build of the emulsification system, and possibly even adding cold process emulsifiers as a finishing kiss.  Of course as always….everything is ….. formula specific.

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Yes, EDTA does have a high pH of 9+, but I also was surprised to see it being used as a pH up in cosmetics, considering its typical inclusion rate.

Another option other than TEA, if you are looking for label appeal, might be L-Arginine.

Aloha.

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The internet is simply frightening.  I read Matt’s comment, and immediately my Facebook feed was trying to sell me this:

Polyquaternium-7 687 | MakingCosmetics

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Some reading material:

Trying to create pressed shadow and 214 formulations later I can’t get it right — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

Ideas on why my pressed eyeshadows are giving no color payoff? — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

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You could look at these ingredients:

EndiMoist® 3OS from Coast Southwest

or

Hyacolor™

Bloomage Biotechnology Corp., Ltd.

 
or

EndiMoist® OS

from Coast Southwest

I think they are exactly what you are looking for @@Lauralala .

(One of those can even be purchased at LotionCrafters!  

Hyaluronic Acid, Oleo-HA)

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@PhilGeis I have been overly intrigues with cyclodextrin, and can’t imagine it won’t end up on my bench in the next year.  Is there a process or technique….where it can be incorporated without causing possible issue with preservation?

What about ‘pre-loading’ it with something like D5…to keep it ‘occupied’ while in formula, and until application?

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PhilGeis said:

pH must be addressed throughout making as well as in final product and mistakes in order of addition can screw up preservation.  Tho’ stable in the finished product, some can hydrolyze/precipitate within the making process due to brief or spatial excursions in pH, solubility, chelators, etc.
Alkaline pH and simple aqueous solution will degrade Kathon, parabens can react with carbohydrates, clays and cyclodextrin can absorb preservatives, sorbate auto-oxidizes at higher pH, etc. 

You read my mind!!!

Sadly, the mommy blogger sites train nonprofessionals to only adjust at the end…one more nail in the coffin of preservation.  

I was going to ask this question…even thought I do NOT formulate in this manner…. but I had assumed (guessed) that even though maybe only for a few minutes span…. the exposure to a less than ideal pH might have lasting effect.

In other words…. even if you get the pH down in the end….the damage was done.

I like to get the pH into the range of the finished product, as early as possible.