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I like 165 types…for incredibly stability…and flexibility.  I like to build my own viscosity…and not have it dictated by the emulsifier.

I think what you like about M 202 is the behenyl alcohol.  So that can be added to ANY formula…as a add in.  Easy peasy.

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Are you asking about HLB?

I am unfamiliar with HBL scale?

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My opinion (not worth anything) is… the world is already full of mediocre products.  There is no room for one more mediocre product.  Make something better….no matter the time it takes.

The buyers willing to buy something ‘new’ (give you a chance)… will soon learn your products are not worth buying after one or two tries, if you are putting out average products.  In the internet age….a bad review can hang with you for a decade.

Come out of the gate hot…unique and special.  Otherwise you will be trampled by the herd.

That being said… Many brands succeed with average product….they just spend millions on marketing.  And this is probably…the more effective route….vs letting awesome products….’grass roots’ themselves to the top.

Good Luck.

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GeorgeBenson said:

Could you expand on your thoughts on Isononyl Isononanoate and isostearyl isostearate? 

is Isononyl Isononanoate one that you would put in the disgusting category?

What were the pros/cons of these two and which applications do you think they’d be best suited for?

And what did you like so much about D5?

I am happy with c12-15 but i like experimenting…

Isononyl Isononanoate …is a much lighter texture than isostearyl isostearate.  Simply put….I would add isostearyl isostearate….to anything where the word ‘rich’ or ‘richness’ was in the marketing.

In the back of my mind….(and I had seen this once before on an inci)…and I have not put this together yet….as I am working on something else…but I envision perfection as…. 2 parts Dicaprylyl Carbonate with one part Isononyl Isononanoate.  Of course the supporting cast will make all the difference.  Keeping in mind…I am drawn to the non greasy…lite as air…non shiny type things….. So, you might hate that! 

D5….the volatility (without irritation).  But hey….just got something that takes that to a whole new level. 

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GeorgeBenson said:

btw have you ever tried Cetyl Ethylhexanoate?

Yes…notes say:  Oily and slow absorbing.

My skin is pretty good at making EVERYTHING appear as slow absorbing.  I can test the same emollient on my other half…and poof…it is gone.  Put it on me…and it will puddle for 15 min.  So if it disappears quickly on me…you are already in a special category.

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Well to answer my own question… 

The strong solvent emollients are EXTREMELY IRRITATING to my pits.  I thought I was going to have to check into a burn unit after apply Cetiol Ultimate to my armpit.

After wearing out the DHL driver, from Thailand to Hawaii….I have found some of the most delightful emollients….and way too many disgusting ones.

My keepers are…and in order of most favorite to least:

.5 (point 5) cSt highly volatile dimethicone

D5

ETHYLHEXYL (Octyl) ISONONANOATE ….and if ANYONE can link me a small MOQ supplier of this…I would be eternally grateful!!!!  (preferably USA)

Dicaprylyl Carbonate

Isononyl Isononanoate

honorable mention….for MUCH richer applications:

Isostearyl Isostearate

And I am trying to learn to love… C12-15 AB.

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GeorgeBenson said:

In this came i am actually formulating a cleanser, and i dont have a soaping problem - i am just trying to maximize my foam from the surfactants. So will replacing cetearyl with cetyl help produce more foam? I think that is what matt is saying, but correct me if im wrong here please.

I think he is saying….Cetyl is best at (retard) reducing foam!  Hence it is used in emulsions….to reduce soaping.

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If pretty much a hobbyist (where price is driving factor)…. than I use both of these:

 Hanna Instruments HI98103 Checker pH Tester with Ph Electrode and Batteries, 0.00 to 14.00 pH, +/-0.2 pH Accuracy, 0.1 pH Resolution: Lab Electrodes: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

They also have one that measures to .01 so make sure you select the one you need…as they appear to be identical.  I have the one that measure to .01…just didn’t find it on Amazon in the 3 seconds I had allotted for search.

I also have this one:

Amazon.com: Milwaukee Instruments MW102 PH and Temperature Meter : Industrial & Scientific

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As Matt mentioned…cetyl alcohol is one of many ‘fixes/helps/hacks’ for mitigating soaping.

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Jack Zero….and Beegan…Perry is going to have to add a tab…of CCF colloquialisms!  

Love it.  I always wondered what was less than ZERO…and now I know.  Learn something new every day!

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GeorgeBenson said:

I did notice that there seems to potentially be a larger amount of hexandeiol than i am used to seeing, i wonder if that could have anything to do with it. 

It is a humectant.

I was just reading up on it…as maybe something to help in an irritation aspect (in a high silicone formula)…. Here is some propaganda on it:

SPI-HexG is an effective antioxidant, anti-inflammatory agent, and humectant. It is frequently used in products that contain silicones because it is an excellent coupling agent. It can be used at lower concentrations than many other coupling agents, therefore reducing its irritation likeliness. SPI-HexG shows interesting properties to boost the antimicrobial efficacy of many common preservatives.

I use a dab of it already…but thinking about upping it.

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What country do you live in?  It is always nice to try and add endemic ingredients.

How about:

L-Proline
Betaine
Xylitol

like mentioned earlier…what is already in there?

Glycerol
Butylene glycol

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Pharma said:

Use high refractory index protic solvens or suspend micronised extracts or extract impregnated silica.

That was on the tip of my tongue. 

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GeorgeBenson said:

@Graillotion i cant help you with this question you have here, but i just want to say that the level of detail and obsession you have for your deo ingredients makes me feel like when you are finally finished with it, if that day ever comes, there’s no way it does not
turn out as the world’s best deodorant, hands down.

Sometimes all the effort in the world, does not get you past Perry’s perspective, and sometimes…. you get that little edge…that allows you to just  sit back and smile.   

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@coco , if you could find me a link to that place…I would greatly appreciate it.
I did find this place…when I googled it…but it is in California, but also sells II.

AE Chemie, Inc. – Beauty Expressed Through Nature

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CedarWind108 said:

Have you tried LexFeel 7 (Neopentyl Glycol Diheptanoate) or Cetiol Ultimate (Undecane (and) Tridecane). They seem like they might be what you’re looking for

I have Cetiol Ultimate on order.  However… my goal is to find the magic in an ingredient that is NOT a strong solvent (C. Ultimate).  As this is a deodorant designed for someone with ultra sensitive armpits (me).  My theory is…some of these ingredients are messing up the protective sebum…and I want to try and avoid that…but get all the benefits of Cetiol Ultimate…without the ‘stripping’ aspect.

I have seen the Neopentyl Glycol Diheptanoate… but I am preferring to stay with ones that have the potential to ‘evaporate’….granted not all my candidates do this.  It is reasonably priced…so it might fall into my Thai cart.  

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chemicalmatt said:

. my faves C12-15 alkyl benzoate, diisostearyl adipate and isononyl isononanoate are superb degreasers and beneficial in other aspects, but all of these are more than twice the price of IPM.

Regarding diisostearyl adipate ….sometime I have difficulty sorting through the synonyms…. are any of these a synonym….and if not…any of them equally delicious?  (Options from my supplier.)

Diisopropyl Adipate

Dioctyl Adipate

Di-PPG-3 Myristyl Ether Adipate

Diisobutyl Adipate

Diethyl Adipate

BTW….I often see the high praise of C-12-15 AB…and have tried it neat a 100 times…and just can’t feel it (the magic)?  Just seems a little oily to me….and even tried two different versions (could be the same) from two different repackers.

Part of what I look at…is how quick they either absorb or volatalize.  So far I am really liking Ethylhexyl Isononanoate….but you guessed it….can’t find a small MOQ seller!

Dicaprylyl Carbonate…also seem to match up with my target.

I have 4 more emollients in route…to finally find the magic bullet. Even a .5 cst dimethicone…that is ultra volatile…hehehe…will just have to figure out how to process this in a manner, where some of it is still in the formula by the time the lid goes on the container. 

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Thank you @Bill_Toge , this might me right down the alley of what I am looking for…as an emollient that does not irritate…or strip the skin of sebum (in a deo project/remodel).  This sentence really jumped off the page:

as they hardly interact with the stratum corneum at all, due to being non-polar and therefore immiscible with nearly all of its components

I have some isododecane on order.

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Paprik said:

For example Neroli hydrosol would be “Citrus aurantium amara (Neroli) Flower Water” ; Manuka hydrosol “Leptospermum Scoparium (Manuka) Water” …. 

Thank you.

How do you capitalize on them, on the marketing side?  What is the ‘$$$ ChaChing $$$’ wording that people want to hear?  

Where are you…marketing guy… @jemolian ?

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@Squinny and @Joy …. just curious….how do these waters appear on an INCI?  (Got mine today….not half bad.)

What is the correct way to market products with these scented waters?  Doesn’t seem like you could say….fragrance free…. but maybe fragrance oil free?

Not sure how/if I will use these…but certainly would like to know the correct marketing terms…and INCI wording.

Aloha.

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Sound like a topic for @Pharma , as he loves the latter gum.

Here is a comparison chart (different):

Acacia Seyal - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

As I now only use Solagum AX…I also have a special place in my heart for the latter gum.

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Use this link:

Perfumers Apprentice - Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol

And the scent out of bottle…will knock you down…with rose. @Margaret

When you smell a rose…you are smelling phenethyl alcohol.

Rose absolute…is made of phenethyl alcohol….see partial GCMS:

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NOT phenoxy…. phenethyl!!!

LC does not sell phenethyl alcohol. @Margaret

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Here is a VERY similar base…..but has a better preservative and a chelate.  This company has numerous bases…..and offers inexpensive sample sizes….so you could try lots of them.  It appears they have basic competence in formulating.

As I formulate….I have never tried anyone’s base….so can not speak to their haptics, stability and performance.

Good Luck @plasma800 

Simple Lotion - Buy Bulk | Essential Wholesale

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Probably of the ones that will be readily available to you… Liquid Germall Plus.  Anything with Aloe….needs a good one.

Is this really the best formula/base you could find?  This is below mommy blogger construct.  Doesn’t even have a chelate.