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hectic000 said:

@Graillotion I forgot to follow up with a question I had about bakuchiol not bakuchi oil lol. You mentioned that in order for it to be effective in a formula they have to add the right amount of  
Sytenol® A, the only natural Bakuchiol? - Prospector Knowledge Center (ulprospector.com) Do you know roughly what amount I should look for in a product? Paula’s choice has a 1% bakuchiol and 2 % retinol that’s pretty popular at the moment.

Are you a member of ULProspector?

If so…follow this link.

Sytenol® A by Sytheon - Personal Care & Cosmetics (ulprospector.com)

Keep in mind….this company probably paid for all the studies….and only posted those that reflected positively on their product, often in a skewed by design…format. 

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As Paprik said….and pointing a finger at: Polysugamulse D9 (ColonialChemicals).

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MarkBroussard said:

But, if the cows are only fed grass, would it not then be Vegan?

Grass-Fed-Gan?

Vegetarian fed, free range, grass fed-gan tallow.

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CedarWind108 said:

Have you tried LexFeel 7 (Neopentyl Glycol Diheptanoate) or Cetiol Ultimate (Undecane (and) Tridecane). They seem like they might be what you’re looking for

Aloha… I did finally acquire the LexFeel 7!

Absolutely in my top 5 now!

Cetiol Ultimate…made my armpits feel like a celebrities last drive in a mini-cooper!  Thought I was going to have to check into a burn unit.

So the members of my top 5 are, somewhat in order:

Dicaprylyl carbonate

Ethylhexyl isononanoate

Neopentyl Glycol Diheptanoate

A player to be named later  (maybe Lauryl Laurate).

and

Isononyl isononanoate

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Aristo AVC is very flexible… You can add it to the water phase…you can add it to the oil phase….and you can add it post emulsification.  On the latter, make a slurry with your cool down glycols…this will help to disperse it a bit.

Try each of the different approaches…as part of your knock-outs.

I for example…will always put it in the oil phase….as I do not like working with thick water.    

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Maybe for first test…try taking pH from 5.7 quite possibly the bug’s favorite pH…to a more antimicrobial 4.7?

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Berry_8 said:

And @Graillotion thanks for all your tips. As you can probably tell many ingredients here I have chosen from comments you and others have made on this forum!

Hah…that did read like a ‘script’ to me.

Right off the bat…I do not see a conflict…but I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

So, if you I had to guess….then I might guess you are possibly introducing it as a contaminated ingredient?…. if your bubbles are actually growing…post production.

On this line:

Montanov L/68/202 - 2

Is that a total of 2%….or two percent of each?  (If 2% of each…probably a little excessive.  )  Don’t build viscosity with emulsifiers…but builders… like fatty alcohols…and every so many other options.  Use emulsifiers….to emulsify.  (You’ll be much happier.)

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Is the Aristo AVC…your only emulsifier/gelling agent?

If so… use your Kitchenaide Mixer. 

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Hehe….use them together… This is the perfect example of a cascading pair.  IL is obviously liquid at most any temp it will be exposed to, and the LL (especially the one from FSS) will be a solid…that immediately melts upon contact with skin.

I can’t imagine a better synergy.

I also like using LL…where I want a very thick cream.

Apply them both neat to your skin…and observe for 30 min. (And question answered.) @GeorgeBenson

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@hectic000 , be advised….the re-packers are often selling this:

Bakuchi Oil, Cold Pressed | Lotioncrafter  (3-5% content of the good stuff.)

Which is not the same as this:

Sytenol® A, the only natural Bakuchiol? - Prospector Knowledge Center (ulprospector.com)  (Over 99% of the good stuff.)

The beginners tend to miss that slight spelling difference…and the potency…is like day and night.  Even if you get the REAL stuff…you still have to use more than a few drops in formula…to expect a result.  This is again…a marketing item….designed to sell product…unless someone really spent the big $$$ and put in a fair amount of the good stuff.

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Ummm…. fragrance is a matter of your beliefs.

Many generations…have used fragranced products for their lifetime…and not developed allergies.  Sounds like you are listening to fear mongers!  Is it possible….of course.

If you are selling….there is a small space to sell unscented products…and a VERY big space….to sell delightfully scented products.  Most consumers are not willing to admit it…but they buy what they buy….cus they like the scent.

Here is a link….if you want to buy the almost pure TECA…in small amounts:

Centella Asiatica Extract (TECA 95%) (myskinrecipes.com)

(It is a reputable site out of Thailand.)

I generally just buy a standarized extract powder…and make it myself.  It is many MANY times stronger than what you will buy from a crafter supplier.

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Echo what Mark said…. At marketing levels…it will do nothing…..Well…let me take that back…at marketing levels…it will sell product.

So follow the pack….couple drops….and go crazy with the marketing.  Just make sure you have some functional moisturizing aspects…that will make the customer think it is working.   (Oh…and never forget…good story-line, pretty packaging…and a nice scent.  Those are the fundamentals of making it work! )

Purchased extracts (at the crafter level) are essentially required not to work…otherwise they risk falling into the drug category….if they actually do something.

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Way off topic @GeorgeBenson, but since I am always chasing the fragrance thing…. What was the scent you liked from them?  Just purchased about 20 fragrances….some from them.

Was trying to find a butter-rum/pineapple that I could mix together….but don’t think I’ll get it to work…with what I got.

What nut would want a butter-rum pineapple body butter? 

@RedCoast might chime in?

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A few nice charts in this thread, amongst the non-chemists, @GeorgeBenson .   

Butylene glycol vs glycerin as humectant — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

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An old thread…worthy of a re-read.

Glycols for humectancy, texture enhancers, and hurdle microbe approach. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

Chart of chain length of glycols…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

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If you are not introducing air….then share the formula…there is a possibility you are creating a reaction with ingredients.

Since the bubbles seem to be growing…this supports a concept of a reaction…or preservation issue….so formula would be more important than if they were present right after pouring, which would lean towards process.

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Squinny said:

Thanks @Graillotion - You made me look into further which I wouldn’t have otherwise and think I have come up with a better product because of your views. Cheers 

I did a year of research….and still have faint dreams of making it a commercial product….so I did not show many of my cards.  

It was fun to sit in the rain forest….and watch the mosquitos…it was like they were drunk…the first 17 min…. the would fly right into me…not landing….but crashing…like they were drunk.  Those volatile molecules…really confused them.

I went with a VERY multi-pronged approach…EO’s being just one avenue.  However….the key ingredient that made it all work….caused so much oxidation…. I could not overcome it.

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EO’s are volatile (jumping off).  What keeps the mosquitos away…is those volatile molecules…jumping into the air (creating a mini force-field)….and the mosquito deciding…hmmn…this doesn’t taste/smell very good (or I’m confused)…so they become disoriented…and don’t bite.  The EO’s only have a finite about of these bouncy molecules to give…(about 17 minutes worth)…in the volume needed to repel/confuse/disorient.  We can smell them beyond 17 min…but they are no longer producing the volume…needed to be effective against the highly motivated….mosquito.

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Ghita37 said:

What?? @Graillotion nah i cant misrepresent people by telling people things that are not true!! I thought it was like a certification like for the Halal certification which we pay for or Cosmos certification. cus fr these you cant just print lol.. 

Huh?  If your product has no EO’s….then it is ‘EO FREE’ …and you are at liberty to say so!  You do not need permission…from any one.

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Pick up a cheap centrifuge off Amazon…and some freeze thaw cycles…and you’ll have an idea.  But more importantly….if you used good builders…and good equipment…you should have a reasonable idea.

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GeorgeBenson said:

Hmmm I swear EMT appears much more tolerant of electrolytes compared to AVC in the same formula. You sure it’s just marketing? I think there might be some truth to these claims. 

I will try our some of your experiments and report back my findings.

I did not mean to infer…No difference in tolerance… Just not as much as the marketing would lead one to believe.  

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I think those percentages…would be based on the viscosity you want.

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Squinny said:

Graillotion said:

@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:

TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.

I would suggest…a 2-3% try.  Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.

Hi there @Graillotion - Interesting (sorry if I am hijacking this thread!) - I am also wanting to make an insect repellent and have come up with a formula that I have no idea if it will be any good for mozzies (but I like the small ha!). So mine is basically Water, Neem Oil, Coco Caprylate, and essential Oils - Citronella, Peppermint, Kunzea, Tea Tree + emulsifier Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100) Zepimax Zen, Preservative. I want the lotion to be quite think milk like. After reading this might at 1% TEC. What are your thoughts and do you have any special ingredient especially for mozzies? ( I know TEC isnt for mozzies!)  I just want to make for my partner who spends lots of time in wet tropics bushland - and lots of ticks and mozzies - and I dont want him using DEET anymore. Any advice is appreciated. Cheers

Yes…you need the TEC…as a solubilizer for the EO’s…and 1% was the rate I used.  Mix the TEC and the EO’s seperately…and then add that slurry post emulsion.

The problem with that concept….is it will only protect right in the neighborhood of 17 minutes.  After that point…all the volatile EO molecules will have jumped off….and the victim will be ripe for blood letting.  

It takes a TON more work….to get it to last a few hours.

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I would be remiss to not mention….you can also have a cumulative effect….so testing each individual ingredient will not be sufficient.  At some point….you’ll have to combine all water phase ingredients with the water and polymeric…and determine how it performs in a group setting.

Wanna have some fun?

Take your Aristoflex AVC solution….and while stirring and on a scale…. add your Sodium PCA with a dropper…and record at what percentage…it breaks the gel.

I assume you have ZEN…the one that brags about being more tolerant…. Do the same think… make a gel….and while stirring on the scale….add sodium PCA…and record at what percentage….it breaks the gel.

I think you will be enlightened….and it would be good feedback for posterity.

Aloha.

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Just take a beaker….with say 100 ml water…..add .7-1% Aristoflex….blend till homogenised.

Add suspect ingredient (at ratio you plan to use) and mix again….then evaluate.

It will give results…in a minute (not days, weeks, months.)

Bingo….done.

FYI….other polymerics being more tolerant….that is mainly marketing propaganda….when they say ‘better’….well…is 1% more tolerant….better?    Hehehe…you know the game….define better.