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Might tag in the expert… @PhilGeis

I think that concern is mainly inhalation…but I am not an expert. Always memba….concept you are concerned with…is produced by the human body. ???? Have not seen such stickers…on ????.

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You can create reasonable stability testing at home…with centrifuge, incubator and freezer.

PET is a ‘No-Go’ at home. Trust me…you want bona fide PET test result for your lawyer to keep on hand. ????

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Am I on drugs….or did you swap the triethyl citrates for way more vitamin E than should be in a formula? ????

Do a knock out…. remove the EO’s and reduce the vitamin E to .2%.

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Also as knock out…. make a small throw away batch…with no preservative. Sometime that can be the culprit…. If it doesn’t irritate…then switch up the preservation….but probably in my earlier guesses.

BTW without the triethyl citrate…you have zero actives… What are you trying to accomplish?

ZR only absorbs odor…not really a bactericide.

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Sorry…keep noticing things… Do you really have Vitamin E….twice?

BTW… I’d probably start from scratch… guessing even if this doesn’t irritate…. not going to be overly effective?

What was your final pH.

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Ok…. that mommy bloggerism…just got WAY topped for the month… Check out this one (see bold):

You got me (mostly thinking and planning, but a modest beginning, as well) into DIY and, in the process, I’ve come across articles about DMAE. It seems one must be extremely aware how much they use (recommended not more than 1%) and what other ingredients it is mixed with. If uncertain, anyone attempting a DIY project including DMAE should contact a professional; such as Lotioncrafters.

OMG…. I can’t stop laughing.

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I think EDTA and GLDA have the same number of negative charges, unlike something like sodium phytate. I guess the concern would be precipitants…and if they form, which can be verified with testing.

The way I understood chelates and cationics from my mentor was….use the ones with the fewest negative charges…and use them at very very low rates.

Here is a snippet from him…when we were hashing through a formula with Varisoft Eq:

Phytic acid has up to 12 negative charges which is three times that of TSGD or EDTA. It’s a cationics nightmare. The others may actually work because they’re added in traces compared to the cationic ingredient. From a chemistry perspective, it’s unlikely that a TSGD-Varisoft complex forms which precipitates. Most likely, there will be electrostatic interactions between the two but nothing which you could feel or see, just the kind which potentially reduces long-term stability.

He leaned towards using GLDA at ultra low rates.

Good luck.

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Incomplete formula… please list all ingredients, including the preservative.

First guess would be the X-gum….as it is often the guilty party. .5% is a lot.

Second guesses would be way too much of HA and PGA. Maybe look at some professional formulas for some guidance on use levels. Please do not take the sellers use rates…as they are only trying to move product.

Too much Aloe, can also have this effect. Cut all above mentions by at least 50%…and see if you have a better product.

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Your pH adjustment is typically measured as Q.S…. Quantum satis.

This means you use enough to hit the targeted pH. It is typically not part of the calculation to 100%…unless it was a formula that was using lots of acid for another purpose. But for simple adjustment…it is not a calculation usually. Just put your meter in….and adjust till you get where you need to be.

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I think the answer to your question lies in the fact that our skin is very resilient. We abuse it in every way….exposure to low humidity with heated and air conditioned homes, and it adapts…. we abuse it with high pH products likes soap, and it immediately adapts and starts to lower the pH back to were it is comfortable. Almost whatever we throw at our skin….it overcomes to some degree. In no way shape or form…does the skin stay at the higher pH that soaps takes it to….it immediately uses all its resources to return to the correct acidic pH.

I think you will find many that are deeply entrenched in skin care….do not use high pH soaps for this very reason.

Our skin has something called an ‘acid mantle’ which is our first and foremost barrier to the world. This might be a starting point for your journey and study of skin. Yes, skin can recover from being soaped….but why? There are many theories, and just as many opinions, so you will always be able to find the crowd that believes in your theory, if you want folks to sing ‘Kum ba yah’ with you on soap….just hang on a soaping site. 🙂

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If you live in the USA…it is not a requirement … Just prudent. We still operate in a cometic ‘Wild wild West’ here. ???? or maybe…. ????

We have an essentially unenforceable mandate from the FDA….to produce a ‘SAFE’ product.

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Dang @Perry44 …. we need a ‘Like’ button. ????

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If you don’t get the performance, you were hoping for…once you get the irritation in line… try knocking the pH down to 3.8 and see how you like it. ???? This is a picture….taken in one of the leading products in this space.

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And………is has ever so much nicer looking INCI than: Hydroxypropyl Bis-Hydroxyethyldimonium Chloride ????

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I’m a little slow to the party…. Are you still fond of Glyceryl Glucoside?

Is this stuff crazy expensive everywhere? I see the Thai place has it. No other USA repackers…that I am aware of.

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I guess…. then the question to be asked…is what is the value of the overall shea market?

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Not only has a re-packer never been able to answer a question for me…. I can’t even get them to understand the question, as science is so foreign to them. They are not even aware of the arena the question comes from. ????

One time I got ahold of the owner….after the customer care jockeys kept telling me there GMS was 100% monostearate, (which of course it wasn’t, it was 40%) and the owner was able to tell be the mono content. The balance of the team had never even heard of di and tri stearates.

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[Graillotion]

Here is a sample formula, so you can see inclusion rates.

Good Luck…over and out.

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This formula….is so…. far from standard… I think you should just go back to the drawing board.

What are you trying make? A moisturizing cream? Let me know what you are trying to make…and I paste a couple of formulas…just to give you some guidelines.

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Do you find this formula drying (say after an hour), and this is why you are rubbing the skin…and finding the pilling?

If you drop the aloe completely….a whole new world opens up to you…. Look at Aristoflex AVC. You can get that at LotionCrafters…if you live in the USA. (Dropping all the aloe…would be a wonderful thing….as it is mostly over-hyped bug food.)

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Look at the use rate of PGA! Looks a little like you used mommy blogger sites for a reference? HA would have similar use rates.

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When you said all above….that would be the X-gum, HA, PGA and aloe.

Yes, replace with water.

At some point…you’ll may have to find an alternate thickener…as the above will reduce viscosity.

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Hehehe….Yes…just for a knock out experiment, start with the 50% reduction of the jelly like materials….this will at least give you an idea if you are headed in the right direction.

Don’t ask me more….as I would delete all aloe….and put HA and PGA down to claim levels. ????

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” There is peer-reviewed scientific literature that demonstrates that skin can recover quickly from high-pH soap (9.5 pH).”

I believe that is what I said…but when I read this research…I was always appalled at HOW LONG it took to auto-correct. I guess quickly is an arbitrary term.

Good thing I don’t sell soap….so I can choose as I see fit. (20 years and counting….)