ggpetrov
Forum Replies Created
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I think you should boil the water to the 100 degrees Celsius. Only then the Caffeine will be dissolved completely. Also, you should not allow the water to be cool too fast. That’s from my personal experience with the Caffeine.
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What was the temperature of the water when you tried to dissolve the Caffeine?
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mhart123 said:@ngarayeva001 GMS (glyceryl monostearate) is an emulsifier
No, it’s not!
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As far as i know the both - Sodium lactate and Sodium PCA can be sun sensitizing, but I am not sure at what concentration. I alway use Sodium lactate in my lotions at 2 - 2.5%. Also I go to solarium twice a week, and haven’t noticed something unusual, but still I am wondering if there’s a danger.
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I think, you have mislead yourself. These characteristics are related to the Lactic acid, which is a mild a-hydroxy acid, and yes it acts as exfoliant, but in bigger concentrations. Sodium lactate is actually salf of the Lactic acid, and it has an alkaline properies.
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Cafe33 said:I will try what ggpetrov suggested so I can investigate this material further. I tried a similar formula using Lanette N at 3.5% and it worked very well.
I don’t have glyceryl stearate citrate or 165 but I can make the SE version.
Sure, you can use GMS SE - it is also one my favourites, but keep in mind that it’s not a direct replacement of GMS Citrate. Both emulsifiers have a different haptic properties. I’d say that SE version gives very light and a kind of drier feeling emulsions than the Citrate.Also you can go with a bigger percents with the SE. I’ve got wonderful results as follow : 2% Olivem + 1% SE or 1.5% Olivem +1.5% SE (Olivem in to the water phase). In both ways it gives very pleasant textures with a kind of “moist” effect, but not oily or waxy.This variant combined with a smaller oil phase is suitable for the male skin. If you want something “rich” you can add Oliwax LC at 1%. -
Have you tried to put the Olivem 1000 into the water phase? I like it very much, and i’ve never noticed the effect described by you. Just some advices from me :
* With this oils level, do not use more than 3% Olivem. Also heat it into the water phase, but gain the temperature to 80-85 degrees.
* After the initial emulsification spread the Xanthan.
* Use fatty alcohols instead of increasing the emulsifier level.
* Also you can pair the Olivem with anionic emulsifier, for example 2,5% Olivem + 0,5% Glyceryl stearate citrate - this combination usually gives a kind of dry feeling.
Hope this helps! -
Dr Catherine Pratt said:1501 Hi you can use perfume fixatives like Glucam P 20, also use bottom notes like Sandal wood & resins.Good luck Catherine Pratt
Hello, speaking of Glucam P20, do you have an experience with it? I am interested of this ingredient as a humectant, instead of using glycols - propylene, pentylene. A local supplier sell this ingredient.
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Hello, the simplest answer is - no! As the others already said, the preservatives are also an active part of the emulsions as the others components, so you can’t skip them just like that. I think if you are using some kind of parabens you can skip them, as far as I know, they don’t affect the viscosity of the emulsions. Maybe also the Phenoxyethanol, but i am not completely sure. So, what kind of preservative do you use? If you live in Europe, there’s a plenty of places you could buy some cosmetic ingredients.
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You should set your goals of what type of skin exactly you are making your formula. Oily skin is quite abstract notion. The female oily skin is different from the male oily skin. So you need to test your products on some customers. Also I have tested Montanov 202 many times, and I’d say that it doesn’t have matting effect, also it doesn’t give lighter emulsions than the other emulsifiers automaticaly. I’d say for sure that it’s tricky and quite weak emulsifier. Very often emulsions made with it tends to separate after a week or two, or even a month!If you looking to make a light and fast absorbing emulsion, you should look at the oil phase first. Maybe in this case esters and silicones are more suitable than the vegetable oils. Even more! Olivem 1000 could be used in an oil free emulsions, so it could be the only emollient there. For the achieve of a matting effect, very suitable is the Emulprot - a milk protein based emulgator, also distarch phosphate etc. From my personal experience, light and non greasy emulsions could be made by glyceryl stearate citrate as a coemulsifier, GSC SE, and I guess that the glyceryl stearate / peg-100 stearate could be a good choise as well.
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suswang8 said:Hello.
A few questions about this, please:
-1- When we see in a formulary a recipe calling for, say, 50g of water as part of a phase that will be heated, is the assumption that we *start* with 50g, and that this 50g will be reduced a fair amount as a result of the heating, with the true amount incorporated likely being closer to 45g? Or is the recipe truly calling for 50g of water to be incorporated?
-2- Assuming the recipe is truly calling for 50g of water to be incorporated, how does one accurately account for this (i.e., “pad” it) so that the heated water amount will equal 50g? Is one meant to re-weigh the beakers just before blending the phases (adding extra water to replace that lost to evaporation)?
Thank you.
There is a rule, although i am not sure if it’s correct, but it says that you should compensate the evaporated water in advance, and that’s about 10% of the overall water size. Just keep in mind that the water keep evaporates during the cool down as well, so in general you can estimate the water loss only after it cools completely, i.e. arround 30 degrees. So, if your formula says 50g. of water, you should add 55g.
You can’t find in advance how much exactly water will evaporate, because this process is deppendant of many other conditions.The adding of a water into a cool emulsion makes no sense, and sounds like absurd! When the emulsion is cool, the emulsification is already completed, so this additional water can’t be incorporated in the emulsion anymore. -
elirit said:Why is olivem 1000 one of your favourites?
Because it is proven and stable, easy to find, has a lot of alternatives and excellent skin compatibility. Also, you can make a lot of various textures with a various sensorials depending of the other ingredients. You could try also - Emulsan 2, and Glyceryl Stearate & PEG-100 Stearate. With the second one, I don’t have an experience yet, but it was highly recomended by Ngarayeva 001, so I purchased some to test it.
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elirit said:Hello All,
thank you in advance for your help. My formula for a facial cream had 3 emulsifiers in it ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%). I found the Olivem 1000 to be too soapy after trial and error. And the Liposorb (sorbitan stearate) is really expensive. I have 0.4% xanthan gum and 3% glycerin. I now purchased 5 new emulsifiers to try:
Montanov 202 Arachidyl
Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl GlucosideMontanov 68 Cetearyl
Alcohol (and) Cetearyl GlucosidePolymulse Acrylates/C10-30
Alkyl Acrylate CrosspolymerNaturemuls Candelilla/Jojoba/Rice
Bran Polyglyceryl-3 Esters, Glyceryl Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Sodium
Stearoyl LactylateEcomulse Glyceryl
Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl LactylateWhich emulsifiers (2-3) would you pair together in formula?
Thank you again 🙂
In my opinion, the texture and the sensorials of the emulsion, aren’t a function only on the emulsifier! They are related with the other ingredients as well as the processing methods. Soaping effect could be moderated if know how exactly. Olivem 1000 is one of my favourite emulsifiers, and if you put it in the water phase instead of the oil phase, you will get a completely different texture and no soaping. The anionic emulsifier isn’t just an add, it can fill the gaps in the interface film around the oil droplet more densely and thus will make the emulsion more stable.You should use a more popular emulsifiers. What will happen with your formula if Seppic stops to produce Montanov 202, just like they did with the Simulgreen 18-2? You will have to redesign your formula again and again.About the processing. I don’t think you need a homogenizer! You’d better look at the immersion blenders such as Bosch CleverMixx Baby. It has a baby attachment, so you can make a small volumes and the same time it has a great power and speed. But it’s applicable only at the homogenization phase - the first 2-3 minutes. Then you should switch to an impeller or kitchen mixer till the cool down. If you pass this moment you will never get a nice texture. The cool down mixing also makes the emulsion smooth and nice, and also removes the bubbles remained afrer the homogenizing. Good luck! -
Paprik said:Hey guys,
just wondering, how’s everyone figuring out the amount of emulsifier needed for a emulsion?
I know, that it varies and there is not a thumb rule. I also know, it depends on the temperature, type of ingredient, speed of mixing, type of shear etc … But would appreciate any of your tips and tricks
Something like - I make few batches and start with ratios 1:3.5 ; 1:4 ; 1:5 …
If that looks alright, you do stability testing?One of the reason why I’m asking is that annoying whitening/soaping effect. That’s caused by high input of emulsifier, right? I don’t really want to use silicons, but I’m struggling with this issue.
That said, one more question. If I’m using for example Montanov, Glyceryl Stearate SE and Cetyl Alcohol. Those GS SE and CA are also considered co-emulsifiers. How do I calculate them into that ratio?
EG :
Montanov 68 - 3%
Glyceryl Stearate SE - 1.5%
Cetyl Alcohol - 2%
Would those be counted as 6.5% of total emulsifiers input? Even those they are not “fully” considered emulsifiers?
I hope that makes sense.Thank you very much for any reply
Stay safe, happy formulating! :blush: Why do you have to use two emulsifiers instead of one? As far as I know the Montanov 68 is a stand alone emulsifier, and it already has a built in stabilizer in the name of Cetostearyl alcohol. The same is with the GMS SE.
About the dosage. Just use the manufacturer’s advices. Always start with the minimum required amount and test it. It’s not a good idea to put so many percents of the emulsifier.
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Graillotion said:Well….this is a tough question to answer. To answer it correctly, I would have had to make two identical formulas, and use one attachment on each.
When I make 165 based emulsions…I just use the blender attachment. When I am making a lamellar emulsion, I have always used the emulsifier, since I am using it for a short amount of time, then switching to stirring.
Those that have tried my lamellar emulsions have raved about them. But as mentioned at the beginning, I do not know, had I used the other attachment, maybe they would have been just as good?
So I have exclusively used the emulsifier for my new lamellar projects.Arlacel 165 could form lamellar emulsions!
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I’ve had experience with the Montanov 202 before. I think it came as a replacement of the Simulgreen 18-2. For me the both emulsifiers had a kind of weakness, and the emulsions made with them had a tendency to separate after a week or two, or even after a month. They were unpredictable literally! I don’t think that Montanov 202 has a mattifying properties, because that’s not a function of the emulsifier itself. Also I don’t understand why you have to combine it with the Montanov 68? According to Seppic’s documentation Montanov 202 has a low electrolites tollerance, so it could be combined with the Montanov 82, not 68! Also I don’t think that Montanov 202 is emulsifier for homecrafters, because it is sensitive to temperature deviations, electrolites, shear forces and many more conditions which are difficult to represent at home. Anyway, I have had a successful emulsions when combined Montanov 202 with an anionic emulsifier like Glyceryl Stearate Citrate.
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I think BTMS could be irritating, especially if it’s used for a long time. In addition to ngarayeva001’s opinion I would suggest also Emulsan (Methyl glucose sesquistearate).
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And what about the rancidity?
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Homogenisation is essential for bringing the stability and sensorials. Even if you can’t tell the difference at the first glance, the microscope could show the difference, and it is related with the more uniform structure of the emulsion and the smaller size of the fat droplets. This is important when you are creating an emulsions with higher water phase which are more unstable in general. Dinamyx is not a proffesional device though! If you are planning to make a big batches, you should check the proffesional devices.
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I am not familiar with this emulsifier, but the Sodium PCA is know as viscosity reductor in some systems. It is in general salt, so it could mess some of the ingredients - emulsifiers, polymeric thickeners etc. It is heat resistant, but me personally prefer to add it to the cool down phase, where it rare brokes the emulsions.
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It is completely normal to have a huge differences in the characteristics of the natural products. The people are different, the plants either. Every plant gives oils/extracts with different characteristics, and they can vary a lot. The diferences are dependant of the geofraphic location, the climate, the season, and of a certain vegetation conditions. So, you can’t expect that the oils and other plant products can be the same. Also the fact that they are natural / unrefined mean that they didn’t pass any control. You don’t know what exactly could be in them. So, the term “Natural” doesn’t have to mean healthy and good in any case. Anyway, the refined oils are good alternative because they are more stable to oxidization and in general are more safe than the unrefined ones. It’s a completely different thing the conversation about the benefits of using natural oils at all.
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Dimethicone 1000 is pretty viscous, but I’d suggest you to start from 2%, I think 0.5% is quite low. About the rest, you can substitute with a water. You can try several combinations : Light natural oil+Silicone+Butter, CCT+Silikone+Butter, Oil/CCT+Silicone+Petrolatum, Alkyl Benzoate+Silicone+Butter/Petrolatum.
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I am not sure if adding an oil or water into the cool down phase is ok. I mean, that so called “neutralisation” of the emulsifier means that it stops to emulsify after certain temperature. So if you add an oil at the cool down phase it wouldn’t be emulsified. But may be I am wrong?
Well, if I add the Glyceryl Monostearate as a thickener, it tends to create a kind of layer, which seals the skin and that’s create nasty feeling, at least for me. Recently I have found the “beauty” of Cetearyl alcohol and have no longer use Cetyl or Behenyl which I have used before.
About the Dimethicone, you can use it as much as you want. I think the amount is dependant of Cs index. The more Cs-s the more viscous is the Silicone. But you can’t substitute the Dimethicone with the Ecosilk. I found the Ecosilk to be greasy and unpleasant. I have it at my home, but don’t use it anymore. And you should put the Dimethicone or Ecosilk at the hot phase certainly. They are substitute of the natural oils, and are not heat sensitive. The exception is the Cyclomethicone which is volatile. -
I think that your fat phase is too big. Also the Thistle oil tends to be oxidized very fast. Apricot kernel oil is fine, but its lightness depends of the manufacturer. I’ve seen Apricot kernel oils with quite differents characteristics. You could use only CCT and it would be perfectly fine. Me personally like to use in my products Grapeseed oil and Sesameseed oil. But I only use refined ones. For a less greasy product I would choose Mango butter instead of Shea. Me personally don’t like Glyceryl mono stearate, I’d rather be use more Cetearyl alcohol because it is amazing thing. Olive oil is too heavy! I think your lotion will be in great benefit if you use Dimethicone. Ecosilk and even Esteroil can’t beat the Dimethicone. They are all synthetic. I think the guys here would advice you to remove the extracts from the cool down phase.
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Graillotion said:I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%. (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)
And how did you determine this?