EVchem
Forum Replies Created
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If you’re going to heat one phase, you’ll need to heat the other oils when you add it- I assume you’re heating to ~65C? It’s shocking the beeswax and causing it to solidify. You might not have to heat the others as high, or you can slowly add the carrier oils to your hot phase to gradually cool it without shocking. It’d be interesting to compare stability of your current method to any update you make
Acticire is supposed to work for small water additions (INCI: Jojoba Esters (and) Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Wax (and) Acacia Decurrens Flower Wax (and) Polyglycerin-3). I’ve only used it in one formula and it was not successful, but that could be due to other factors.
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The salt form of mandelic acid (the conjugate base sodium mandelate) might not have the same solubility as mandelic acid.
I saw a glimpse on this paper which starts mentioning that even the chirality of the mandelic acid can affect solubility of the salts.
The full explanation is probably some more in-depth chemistry that I don’t know about, are you bringing both to the same exact pH?
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Didn’t fully read these to be honest but based off the abstracts it looks like sorbic acid can degrade in the presence of EDTA, especially at a pH of ~5. Even the packaging, or in this case mixing vessel’s material could contribute. Maybe this is what you are seeing?
“Studies of the effect of ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid (EDTA) on sorbic acid degradation“
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@Pharma oops monkey see monkey continues the typo- but the paper I found is actually for the palmitate salt that is what I had in mind.
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@Pharma I very vaguely recalled hearing ascorbyl phosphate could be an emulsifier- just missing the fact it had to be a salt! Thank you
However I only found this paper, the abstract doesn’t make it look super promising since it still is not very water soluble. Have you ever prepared any emulsions with this?
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the xanthan gum does not provide a great feel for hair- what exactly do you ‘qs’ to?
you could bump up the btms to maybe 3%
aloe does nothing take it out
oils will more likely weigh hair down than provide a conditioning benefitas for the symptoms you describe, my only guess is the fragrance was too strong and gave you a headache- try a fragrance-free version
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We have a serum using it at 0.8% with 0.2% xanthan- there is a tiny bit of oil (<1%). Personally I think it’s a bitch to use as the main gellant. Our client has been disappointed with the variation in opacity in that product. It ranges from near translucent to relatively opaque.
Supplier recommends max 2%- I guess if you went over that you might not have any more free water to gel. You might be somewhat right about the price being a factor, but also because I don’t think it could achieve a very high viscosity alone.
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Are you adjusting pH in this? those surfactants have a higher pH, and your preservative system is useless above pH 5.5-6. If you do go that low your surfactants might have issues though
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It could be heating, and the way you this is prepared is probably important as well. A 3 roll mill might work (like how pigments are dispersed for color cosmetics).
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Can I ask why you’re using an oil base at all? It looks like just carriers that you’re using to get a thicker viscosity. Coconut oil is probably going to be challenging since it’s melt point is so close to ambient temperatures. You could try a number of other butters/waxes, also personally I have never had success with using soy lecithin for an emulsion.
Why not water thickened with some kind of natural gum ? Are you hoping for long shelf life?
Is this actually for horses because I have no idea what their systems can tolerate
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Ah yeah I’m not advocating for anything other than Denatured Alcohol SDA 40 B to be used here. I thought that specific type could maybe be purchased from local stores rather than looking for suppliers, especially if you don’t need to buy a lot of bulk that you might have to get a permit to transport. If they don’t sell SDA 40 B I would not recommend making a substitution without research.
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@Aziz normally I would agree, but the specific type of alcohol mentioned has pretty stringent definition- 40B is cleared for cosmetic use in 21 CFR 76
I’m not an expert but I don’t think there would be much variation of this between sellers
https://www.ttb.gov/industrial/industrial-alcohol-denatured-alcoholPersonally, I think any ingredient you can prove identity of, and substantiate safety for seems permissible in US cosmetics (provided you aren’t making any non-cosmetic claims about it).
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HEC (hydroxyethylcellulose), hmw hyaluronic acid, or a hyaluronic acid crosspolymer, not sure if they will match the feel. Natzam is right about safety, but my guess is you want ingredients that don’t sound ‘scary’ to people.
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So I know there are “anti-bloom” agents you can try to incorporate (sorbitan tristearate up to ~2% is supposed to help with this, but so is >5% octyldodecanol..). I’m not strong in anhydrous formulations but I took a course in May that compared balm formulating to chocolate tempering, and a lot of the resources for that industry had gone into great detail on how to achieve uniform/stable product.
Octyldodecanol and petrolatum definitely can work in one product, they are both in Chapstick (the actual brand). Can I ask why 20% beeswax? That seems exorbitant, I would sub half that with petrolatum and see how that does. This is likely just going to come down to playing with ratios
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@MarkBroussard Thank you, I’ll take a look. I work at a CM so they are always fussy about bringing in new materials but can’t hurt for lab work!
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@David08848 I know brenntag offers it but I think they typically sell in totes- the place I work has bought just a drum but that was before my time. If you wanted much less (pail amount) you might look around at hardware type stores
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@Pharma the chitosan sounded great but my next fear is they want to claim the formula is ‘vegan’ and all the poor shrimp had to give up their exoskeletons. and right?? let’s pick the thing that used to be manufactured with benzene, it’s only 3 syllables so it must be okay.
@Belassi I’m using the 200x concentrate and ultrez 10. Ultrez 20 would probably work slightly better, but I think the sodium benzoate/ pot sorb and the carbomer will continue to be at odds with each other since they both need different pH ranges to function.
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@Pharma Yep I have arginine and that has somewhat worked. Here’s the kicker… the client wants an aloe gel with carbomer and they want the preservative system to be potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate. The sales team refuses to tell the client the formula is never going to work as they hope
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So the cir has a ridiculously long report on glycolic/lactic acid that somewhat relates. Honestly I haven’t read all of it but it seems to show that concentration and pH, in addition to the formulation method can prevent/mitigate AHA-related sun damage.
Ex:
“The increase in UV radiation damage associated with AHA pretreatment, therefore, was of such a magnitude that it is easily conceivable that
aspects of product formulation could eliminate the effect.”https://online.personalcarecouncil.org/ctfa-static/online/lists/cir-pdfs/pr34.pdf
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I was going to say phytic acid as well, are the AHAs really able to cause sensitization if they are used for pH adjusting at low concentrations? I think I’ll try to look for a study on this
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Honestly I don’t really see the need for an emulsifier since you have no oils (other than what you’re putting in with the emulsifier blend), you just need to figure out a way to suspend the clay and sulfur. So you need some kind of thickener- maybe a gum like gellan or xanthan? not sure there’s enough water for it to actually hydrate and you’ll almost definitely need a stronger preservative- your best bet might be to make this immediately before applying if it is for personal use only.
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client said they wanted to use niacinamide to adjust the pH of the product with carbomer since other bases were not ‘clean’ enough …. even after saying it wouldn’t work sales told me to make an attempt anyway. guess who was right? not that the client cares, they are at the dangerous level of knowing how to google but only to cherry pick their information
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the acids you have have pretty low pka (~3.
and TEA isn’t actually that strong of a base. I’ve heard that TEA is used predominantly because you have a larger ‘window’ to add it without overshooting desired pH. You should be able to use NaOH in it’s place for a toner -
@ngarayeva001 I tried this approach with clients who were so far in the ‘natural/no toxins’ rabbit hole (they literally said they would like nothing in the ingredient list over 4 syllables). Got asked “why would you put caustic lye in this product!? It can cause chemical burns” Now I’ve had to prove that even with 14% niacinamide I cannot gel carbomer… feel like i’m taking crazy pills!
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Many of the people on here did not go to school specifically for cosmetic chemistry, so don’t feel like that is the only way to be educated.
Choosing the emulsifier will always depend on the type of formula you want to make (oil in water, water in oil, etc) and the ingredients you have. To be honest there is always a bit of guesswork in choosing the amount to use. Depending on where you get your ingredients you can look at the suppliers recommended formulation tips/tricks.
If you read through posts on this forum, you’ll see that it’s always recommended to start by trying to copy a formula, then make simple adjustments and get a feel for how things work firsthand. If you have access to open source formulas and you like the feel, then start by making modifications to those.You can also go the other route and hire a chemist, it really depends on what you want to make/ amount of time you would want to spend to learn how to make it. If you are trying to manufacture sellable products then I’d recommend just hire someone. You will need to do so much more than just make and test formulas; you’ll need to ensure compliance with regulatory label claims and your governments definition of cosmetics, packaging and design, marketing, fulfillment of orders, inventory management, quality controls. I could go on but instead you can contact anyone on this page to learn more