[Eugene]

vitalys said:

@Eugene Mmmmm Saperavi sounds like magic to me I bet you are based in Georgia, aren’t you? Your idea is doomed to the commercial success! Wine and its waste materials are a great source for the variety of cosmetic products. I used to work for the very similar concept 10 years ago and the commercial results were so impressive from both marketing and commercial standpoints. Every sort of wine has its own benefits, which can be used for varieties of cosmetic products from a light cream to the scrub or even the special types of skin care. 

I am actually based in Georgia, Tbilisi Happy to here that you know our wine and are familiar to wine skincare. Haven’t heard about wine waste materials in cosmetics, what do you mean? 
Idea came to me after we saw that our Saperavi soap had a great success. We also use grape seed oil in some projects.
God, we have so many species of wine, so Saperavi is just a beginning)))

[Eugene]

Graillotion said:

Fermented grape extract….nice ring to it.  Guess you cannot advertise a Sulfite free formula.   

I always found a little alcohol…makes a nice addition… a little like adding D5.

Guessing you might have some of the same concerns as adding something like green tea, and phenols, so you might need to take some additional actions beyond the sulfites already included.  But not my area of expertise.  Maybe @Pharma will chime back in.

Aloha.

 

I don’t need sulfite free formula????  So as I understand there is no problem with wine, but I will need good preservation , right? 

Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…Maybe @Pharma will chime back in…

For a bottle of good wine, I might

No, problem at all! Bottle of our traditional family Saperavi wine will be waiting for you )))

So won’t wine spoil my emulsion or other products?

[Eugene]

Pharma said:

Why do you need the alcohol gone?

Actually, I don’t need. I just thought that it would be easier without it. But if its ok, I don’t mind. 

[Eugene]

Formulator said:

My first guess would be 3% allantoin, it’s probably present as undissolved crystals in your cream. Try reducing it to 0.3%.

It is fully dissolved and I can’t feel any crystals at all???? I thought that allantoin was soothing ingredient, so why it should cause tingling?

Perry said:

It could also be the Benzyl Alcohol in the Geogard causing the reaction.

It was the first thing I thought about, so I’ve changed preservative to Geogard Ultra, but tingling was the same…

Mondonna said:

What is the final PH of your product? 

Below 5.5

Graillotion said:

Allantoin is 6X too high…but doubt it would cause the tingling…just be abrasive since that much won’t dissolve. 

There are really no crystals, emulsion is very smooth and pleasant…
I will try to reduce both allantoin and EO, I have already changed preservative to Geogard Ultra. 

My apologies for being late, I hade problems with signing in. Thank you all guys for such an interesting discussion!

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

What is the pH? 
This preservative may not be very effective at pH above 5 and with hydrosol. It wasn’t for me.

PH is 5.5. I’ve tested the emulsion after 1 year being in hot weather and there was no bacterial growth…

Abdullah said:

Maybe it is 1% essential oil. Try 0.2% and see how it feels.

Agree with @Formulator

evchem2 said:

Seconding the 1% Orange EO- I’d go even further and say knock it out completely first and see if you still feel tingling.

I will try thank you…I have same % in other emulsion with no tingling sensations so I thought it could not be EO…

[Eugene]

PhilGeis said:

“Natural” is as meaningless/false as many such claimed combinations are “broad spectrum”.   Geogard ultra is prob on eof the worst.  Please forget it.

Organic acid(s)/Benzyl alcohol/Chelator at your pH may work.  Benzyl should be 5000+ppm plus.    Run a PET and stability.

Thank you very much.
Benzyl alcohol has such a strong scent… It changes product scent a lot.
I was using Preservative Eco, and it is very smelly ((

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

Eugene said:

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

Both preservatives are pH dependent and both will not work good enough at pH 5.3.

As a general rule, if your product pH is above PKa of an organic acid, don’t use that organic acid as main preservative. They may work as helper preservative.

Why don’t you work at pH below 5?

Also if your product is cationic organic acids may not be compatible with it. 

I use ECOmulse as emulsifier, its recomended ph is 5-7.5 …
Naturallythinking.com, where I buy preservative mix, says that sorbate/benzoate has ph range 1- 5.5. After you say they work better on lower PH I made a research on other websites and also found this info.
Do you think it is ok for facial or body cream to have PH lower then 5?
What preservative do you suggest to use, that are approved for “green” products?

Thank you!

[Eugene]

Abdullah said:

You didn’t say what is your pH.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

PhilGeis said:

Eugene said:

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

If that’s all (and two organic acids - neither of which is likely natural) is  prob unnecessary duplication.  In any case, it’s a very poor system.  Suggest ~3000 ppm of either with pH adjusted appropriately and something to impact Gram neg bacteria.

I try formulate organic. So I’m constantly in search for “natural” broad spectrum preservatives. In facial formulations  use geogard ultra, in anhydrous - Geogard ETC. I dot’t like using ETC in lotions because it changes final scent of product. May be it will be better to use Geogard Ultra instead of sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate? I also use Sodium Phytate in every hydrous formulation.
Thank you!

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Thank you very much! Do you think it is enough broad preservative for emultion formulation with ~5.3PH?
Or may be Geogard Ultra is more powerful?
Thank you!

[Eugene]

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

If you ask for the compositional analysis perhaps you can get exact percentages, but typical usage rates are 0.3% Sodium Benzoate + 0.15% Potassium Sorbate, each of which you can add as powders directly to the water phase of your formula … no need to make a separate blend in water unless you want to.

Oh right! It is between 5-5.4

[Eugene]

Hello! I buy ready to use preservative mix (sodium benzoate & potassium sorbate) on naturallythinking.com. I would like to make the mix by myself. Can you please suggest right percentage of water/benzoate/sorbate ?
Thank you!

[Eugene]

Perry said:

I’m not sure but you might contact someone at the Russia SCC.
https://ifscc.org/member-societies/member-directory/?location=ru  or maybe the Turkish society.  https://ifscc.org/member-societies/member-directory/?location=tr
They would be the closest to your location.

Thank you, Perry! 
I will try to contact them.

[Eugene]

MarkBroussard said:

@Eugene:

(1)   Heat your water phase to 55C to dissolve both the Allantoin (0.5% maximum) and Geogard Ultra which is normally soluble in water at RT, but heat always helps.  Don’t heat above 55C as at higher temps you may see some Allantoin crystalize out.

(2)   Panthenol (Powder) … this implies that you are using a D,L Panthenol.  If you want to load up Panthenol at 9.5%, you’ll be better off using D-Panthenol, which is a liquid (available from DSM and repacked by Making Cosmetics).

(3)   With that high a load of Panthenol (assuming D-Panthenol) and Glycerin in a water-based formula, this is going to be an unpleasantly sticky mess of a concoction.

Don’t chase the percentages that other people use in their formulas.  Formulas advertising very high loads of indivudual ingredients are generally nonsense.  Enough is enough, more is not necessarily better.  With D-Panthenol, 0.5% to 1.0% would be sufficient.

Thank you Mark! I remade formula according to your recommendation and it turned out great!

Graillotion said:

I typically formulate with dl Panthenol in the range of .4 to .5%.

I have been told I have very calming creations….

I always use Allantoin (at .5% of water phase….which is lower than .5% of total formula), and dl Panthenol at those very low rates.

Mark is absolutely right….Panthenol at higher levels….simply becomes sticky yuck….. and unlikely to create a benefit.

Just made new batch and consistency is good enough. Thank you! Hope it will be calming also))

[Eugene]

seaberry said:

Eugene said:

Graillotion said:

Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%.  A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.

And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5% ????‍♀️
Geogard - 1%

Thank you. So it ia fully my fault, lack of attention while reading allantoin allowed percentage, 0.1-2%…
Do you think there are enough soothing components to make this spray really working, if I add
Allantoin 0.5
Panthenol 9.5
?

5% allantoin makes sense. That’s never gonna dissolve. 

As most of your formula is water-based, 0.5% would probably be okay. 

9.5% panthenol would be fine from a stability standpoint, but that’s overkill. We don’t have tons of data on panthenol (relative to ascorbic acid, tretinoin, etc), but most of the studies we do have max out at 5% panthenol. 

But then again, I imagine this is for personal use, and even commerical products with 10% panthenol do exist, so you do you

Thank you very much! If I only add 5% of panthenol and 0.5 allantoin, do you think It will be enough to calm skin afrter sun?

[Eugene]

Graillotion said:

Can not help without percentages, but agree with seaberry, as allantoin will only go into the water phase at about .5%.  A small additional amount can temporarily be tricked into solution with heat…but won’t stay there.
Mommy blogger sites like to try and get you to load things up, I think they get a cut from the repackers.

And my golden rule of cosmetics….Just because something is good at a low rate….does not mean it is better….at a high rate!

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5% ????‍♀️
Geogard - 1%

Thank you. So it ia fully my fault, lack of attention while reading allantoin allowed percentage, 0.1-2%…
Do you think there are enough soothing components to make this spray really working, if I add
Allantoin 0.5
Panthenol 9.5
?

[Eugene]

seaberry said:

It would really get you farther if you included the ingredient percentages. 

Panthenol is almost freely soluble in water (even 10% should be fine). So neither it nor the Geogard should cause issues at reasonable concentrations. 

Allantoin is likely the most probable cause. It’s generally only soluble around 0.5%, and even then it can be finicky. 

Overall, you may find better results by adding a polyol, such as butylene glycol at 1~5%.

Panthenol - 5%
Allantoin - 5%
Geogard - 1%

Thank you! So probably all the sitted powder is allantoin? I just read the percentage of  Panthenol foaming spray, that I had at home and it claimed 10% of Panthenol+Allantoin. Hope decreasing % of allantoin will help.

[Eugene]

ChemicalPyros said:

It will depends on the water content, if you have a low water activity it will inhibit bacterial and fungal growth, if not a preservative is in order, but be very careful as lips are more sensitive than other areas, so the preservative should be very mild.
Flavors are usually light sensitive and may go bad with bacterial or fungal contamination.

Hmm, thank you. So it is better to choose oil based…

[Eugene]

ChemicalPyros said:

Hello Eugene,

As flavors they are usually treated like fragrances, you add them in the same way as the fragrance.

They may be compatible with lip scrubs (if the scrubbing agent is salt or sugar), but it might not dissolve in anything anhydrous. So you might consider adding a surfactant to help the dissolution.

Thank you for answer! And what about preservation? I don’t add preservative to lip scrubs, will this type flavor spoil it, if it is water based?

[Eugene]

singhc10 said:

Try using Oleocraft MP-32 (INCI:Polyamide-3) from croda, or Oilkemia 5S (INCI:Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride (and) Polyurethane-79 from Lubrizol, latter one is expensive

Thank you! Does Oleocraft MP-32 just add viscosity?

[Eugene]

Microformulation said:

It is likely you will need to look at products that aren’t “less toxic and mostly with natural components”, terms that really aren’t very useful in R&D.

Ok, if forgetting about natural and toxic aspect, what can I make to solve the problem?

Thank you!

[Eugene]

ngarayeva001 said:

If you want a serum with niacinamide, just use 4-5% of niacinamide. I looked through several studies and haven’t noticed the use of more than 5%, although some brands use 10% it doesn’t seem to be justified. Water, niacinamide, glycerin, preservative and HMW hyaluronic acid as a gelling agent.

Thank you for you advise! I think I will make other serum using Niacinamide. I use Ordinary serum(Niacinamide 10% + Zinc 1%) for myself and can see visible pore minimizing effect. May be it will be the same with 5%, don’t know. 

Microformulation said:

https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/294/pcc-benefits-niacinamide/

Thanks a lot! Didn’t know about this website, it helped a lot.

[Eugene]

Thank you for the answer, Mark! I’ve checked all suppliers I know, but couldn’t find Ascorbyl Glucoside. Can you please explain why it is better then SAP? I’ve made serum with 4% SAP without niacinamide. The PH at the beginning was 6 and it hasn’t changed colod during 3 months, while I was testing it.

Thank you in advance!

[Eugene]

Hello Perry. Thank you for answer. Using both actives I hope to strengthen pigmentation lightening properties. Both ingrediends are good at preventing inflamations. My product addresses aging people, who struggle with pigmentation, hormonal acne and dull skin. Do you have any recommendations on PH?

Thanks in advance!

[Eugene]

Thank you for your answer. But now I’m confused. You say that, the range serves mainly for the sake of solvency not efficacy, but supplyers say, that ideal PH is 6 and it can hydrolyze and form nicotinic acid at higher or lower pH, which can result in skin irritation. What about SAP? Can I adjust 5.5 PH for both ingredients?

Thank you in advance

[Eugene]

Thank you very much for your answer. My formula is not complete at this moment. I want to make some changes, and then will post a new thread to ask for some guidance from chemists.

[Eugene]

Thank you for answer Mark. I love creaminess of Montanov 68, I’m just trying to minimize its percentage because of soaping. For example with Glyceryl Stearate Citrate as a primary emulsifier, I have no soaping, but the emulsion has watery feel on skin, that I didn’t like.