[ETcellphone]

Heike said:

ETcellphone, I’m sorry to let you wait. 

Urea inclines to hydrolysis when it is incorporated in a water solution. In this process the pH value increase, and this is a critical point for some preservatives. Some formulators prefer a combination of lactic acid with its salt sodium lactate. That will slow down the increase of the pH value. 

thank you so much Heike, I appreciate your information  

[ETcellphone]

Heike said:

Please have a look to Urea; because of your water based formula it needs to be buffered to keep the ph stable. You can try a buffering system with sodium lactate and lactic acid. Sodium lactate is also a effective humectant which will show synergetic effects with glycerin.

Betaine is good in combination with glycerin because of reduce the tackiness of it. But have a look to the total amount of glycerin - like Jemolian recommends.

For barriere repair I will recommend an other kind of ingredients or an other product type. You may find effective barrier regulation with linolic acid (in natural oils, some are more oxidative stable like others) combined with phytosterols and hydrogenated phosphatidylcholine. It’s a little bit tricky to do this with acne pronouned skin - try to begin with a very low percentage dosage. You can formulate a hydro dispersion gel with low parts of lipids.

thanks for commenting Heike. I value all your points. 

In regards to the topic of buffering and keeping the pH stable, I am a little confused (probs bc I’m still pretty much a novice). Are you saying I should try to keep the pH around the same level of the skin (5.5ish)? What pH ought my formula be at to be considered ‘stable’? I know that the preservative is pH dependent. I do follow up this serum with a vitamin C serum, so I guess making this formula more on the acidic side is preferable for various reasons. 

In my manual by Zachariah Kovac, he says ” if the formula is too basic, add an acidifying agent
typically, citric acid @ 50%”…. At what percent should I keep a sodium lactate buffering solution? Do I add in a preservative and keep it in the fridge? 

[ETcellphone]

jemolian said:

Just my personal opinion, i’d recommend looking at consolidated percentages of humectants and individual humectants that are in the formulation.

The Natrasmooth contains Tremella, Betaine & Glycerin. If you are using liquid extracts, then the Licorice and Green Tea would likely have Glycerin in them as well, so depending on how much Glycerin you need, you might not need to add additional Glycerin as an individual ingredient since it would be tacky. 

Depending on how well the Tremella & Hyaluronic Acid thickens, you might not need to add 1% Tara Gum as well, a lower percentage can be added to thicken slightly more if that is what you need. 

You will need to make sure that the Optiphen is fully solubilized if that is your concern. 

Also it depends on how well the Urea performs on your skin. It can hydrate but it can also add some tackiness and act as an exfoliator. Allantoin can also act as a mild exfoliator. 

The percentage of Propylene Glycol is relatively high, you can consider lowering that based on how the skin feel goes.  

Thanks for your thorough comment. 

It didn’t cross my mind about the liquid extracts containing the glycerin already. This is a great point. 

You’re right, I think it is more thick than I would like. I used the tara gum to thicken but also primarily to provide a moisturizing, film forming effect. At least that is what MakingCosmetics says tara gum is capable of (this was the description for their liquid form that contains both regular and hydrolyzed tara gum). 
I will either reduce the HA or reduce the tara gum next time. Leaning towards reducing the HA because the tara gum might have better moisture retaining properties. 

With the optiphen, all I do is add it at the end or in with the water phase (I have the glycerin, HA and propylene glycol in a separate cup so that I can make a slurry with the HA powder. I call this my ‘glycol phase’. I then add this glycol phase to the rest of the ingredients (the water phase) at the end. Hopefully that is enough to make solubilize the optiphen. 

[ETcellphone]

Pharma said:

Correct, a chelate helps.

Thanks for commenting  

[ETcellphone]

MarkBroussard said:

@ETcellphone

Yes, you should add a chelating agent to any formula, not just Vitamin C serums.  The chelating agent will serve as a preservative enhancer.

As for a Vitamin C serum, Sodium Phytate is going to increase the pH of the formula.  You might be better off with a chelating agent such as Sodium Glutamate Diacetate or Gluconolactone, neither of which will affect the pH of your serum.

Thank you so much for your comment! I didn’t know that about the sodium phytate. I am placing an order with LotionCrafter soon, I will order their Glucono Delta Lactone (GDL) which seems to be the same thing. Plus it moisturizes so that’s a nice side benefit. 

[ETcellphone]

Graillotion said:

For the record…I use glycerin in all my formulas….but I use a humectant blend.  (Partly to avoid stickiness, and drag, and I have no idea what climate my product will end up in.)

Also, as with all my ingredients…I buy the smallest size from all of my suppliers….Butylene glycol as an example (which did not make my final cut)… the variation between how it felt and absorbed was astonishing….vendor to vendor.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. In your experience, what has been the best ingredient that eliminates drag? You said you use a humectant blend, do you feel like each of them has a unique ability to increase slip, and so cumulatively they perform better together than one by itself?:smile:

Do you remember why butylene glycol didn’t make your cut? Did propylene glycol make your cut, however?

Do you have any opinion on HA vs these glycols, propanediol,etc? I am interested in trying glycereth-26 too, seems like it would be in this category of moisturizing humectant-solvents. I can’t find a supplier though  

[ETcellphone]

RedCoast said:

Just two months ago, I had been looking for polyglutamic acid, too. All I wanted was a little sample that I could get right away. Yes, that’s also the same seller I’d been looking at!

But I decided against it, because there’s the possibility of it being counterfeit.

If that powder is counterfeit, you have no way of knowing unless you did a chemical analysis on it.

There’s also the possibility that it’s contaminated with heavy metals or other bad things, even if that is indeed polyglutamic acid.

Can you request a free sample on Ulprospector? (It would be much safer that way.)

Interesting. Yes it is evident that we are scarce for suppliers if we are trying to buy from the same ebay seller lol! Do you think Ulprospector would send it to anyone who requests a sample? Or do they only give samples to real skincare companies?  

[ETcellphone]

Bill_Toge said:

to my mind it’s most likely the ferulic acid or the vitamin E; they’re the least water-soluble components

I’d suggest using a more powerful antioxidant like sodium bisulphite, combined with an excited-state quencher like benzophenone-4 to keep the amount of reactive oxygen to a minimum

thanks Bill. I will look into these ingredients you recommended. 

[ETcellphone]

Pattsi said:

Your main solvent is water, when water evaporated L-Ascorbic acid would recrystallize.
Maybe try adjust you glycol.

ETcellphone said:

Also, if I were to keep taking it in and out of the fridge, do you think this daily temperature fluctuation, from cold to room temperature and then back to cold again, could hurt the actives in my serum? I only have it out of the fridge for maximum 30 minutes. 

If it was me I would not concern much since DIY L-Ascorbic acid- 15% serum has a very short shelf life maybe 3 - 7 days.

Thanks Pattsi. Do you think even a formula like the one I listed would lose its potency after 3-7 days? Would you say the same thing about the near $200 cult product Skinceuticals CE+Ferulic serum? Is there no way to stop this from happening, in your opinion? 

Skinceuticals CE+Ferulic serum ingredients: 
Aqua/Water/Eau, Ethoxydiglycol, Ascorbic Acid, Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, Laureth-23, Phenoxyethanol, Tocopherol, Triethanolamine, Ferulic Acid, Panthenol, Sodium Hyaluronate.

[ETcellphone]

Pattsi said:

Will depend on how much xanthan and what equipment you are using.
When I DIYed I use xanthan only 0.1-0.2, I added it through a sifter slowly into water under continuous agitation. 

Thanks. I will keep this method in mind. Are you using an electric latte frother or a whisk for this? With agitation, I always wonder if I would be introducing lots of oxygen into my serum via microscopic bubbles trapped in the gel. What do you think? I wouldn’t want to weaken the shelf life or the antioxidants…

[ETcellphone]

jemolian said:

The order looks fine, though you will need to confirm if the grade of xanthan can be stable at that pH, if not most retail versions would also use HA, though it will require sometime to hydrate it fully. Just note that xanthan might be tacky. 

Thanks for your comment. If I were to switch to HA instead of the gum, do you think this order would be okay to use as well?

[ETcellphone]

by the way, I decided to go with xanthan gum in the first place because I was primarily looking for a slip agent; something that would allow me to spread the serum over a greater surface area with ease and smooth glide. if you have any opinions on xanthan gum for that purpose, id love to know. or other slip agents that might be better. Ive heard hyaluronic acid is a good one.

I will say I avoid silicones, fatty acid and oily ingredients when possible becase my skin breaks out easily from them. 

[ETcellphone]

Pattsi said:

usually  acne prone skin is oily type  so they  can tolerate  acne treatment  quit well  cos most would dry their skins out.
but you are on the dry side which is make it harder to treat.

ETcellphone said:
pimples, blocked pores and irritation.

the problem might be your over all routine or daily life how you treat your skin, how u eat , how u sleep etc.

might start with how u clean ur skin.
cleansing oil or balm might be a good chioce or double clean system might do better. you have to try what’s work for you.

Tretinoin 0.025% cream might be a good start if it drys your skin then add aloe or licorice gel.

IMHO i would recommend seeking a consult from dermatologist for some period of time and when u find what is actually your problem then u can design ur own routine for urself.

 if you don’t know what cause your skin to break out it will be a bit hard to start formulate your own serum.

as for TEWL ingredient petrolatum is a gold standard, you can start on low like 0.1- 0.3 if it is still too much i say you can look into light weight baby cream like Ezerra or baby sebamed.

 Happy formulating

I tried cleansing balms in the past but they are too heavy for my skin. I need something that foams up and is oil free. I think the cleanser I am using currently is very gentle and its just the nature of my skin to get easily dried out once it is cleansed. 

I wish I could use tretinoin! However I cannot find a sunscreen that works for me (doesn’t give me acne). 

Hmm adding in a small percentage of petroleum… I never thought of it, but MAYBE it would be ok at a super small amount. 

Thanks for the tips

[ETcellphone]

Pharma said:

ETcellphone said:

Cool! Do you know where I can get it? I am in the US. All I can find is 

Cocamidopropyl Betaine

Not the same thing… betaine has different synonyms such as trimethyl glycine or glycine betaine.

Drawback of certain US based supplement suppliers is the lack in information on the bags. EU suppliers have a more precise labelling and you know (at least after you got the package) ‘for sure’ whether you got glycine (anhydride) or glycine monohydrate.

@Perry From what I can tell, EU regulations for food are better than for cosmetics.

thank you for the information. Yes I am getting that impression too. 

[ETcellphone]

Graillotion said:

Betaine is super hard to find….amongst the repackers….I have ONLY found it ONE place:
https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/VegeMoist_Beet_Sugar_Extract_/894

Would love to have an alternative source!!!

Thanks a lot for the link. It’s the closest I have come to being able to have access to it. Can I ask why you would prefer to have another source? Is their shipping super expensive? 

[ETcellphone]

Graillotion said:

I see someone mentioned Jojoba esters…have you looked at this one.  I was able to FINALLY achieve the TEWL level I wanted…without using Petro products with K-20W at 2%.  (blend with equal amounts glycerin.)

https://www.floratech.com/Product/FK02

Nice! Thank you for the link. It has helped maintain moisture to your skin? I am very acne prone to oils, so I am curious about esters, and if they were suitable for my kind of skin.  

[ETcellphone]

Cool! Do you know where I can get it? I am in the US. All I can find is 

Cocamidopropyl Betaine

[ETcellphone]

Pharma said:

ETcellphone said:

Do you know a good place to purchase it?

Mine is food grade from the local health food shop . Cheaper versions are available in Europe from BulkPowders.com and MyProtein.com, for US customers, PulkSupplements.com would be a place to look for it. I have the impression that, more often than not, food grade is way purer than cosmetic grade & you can use your ingredients for cosmetics and food without any worries.

Ok, thank you I found it on the bulksupplements site. Do you know around what percentage you can use the xylitol before it becomes too sticky? Also, if you have had any experience with Aquaxyl, would you say they are basically the same effectiveness? 

[ETcellphone]

ngarayeva001 said:

Urea will break that sodium carbomer. You need to find another gel maker. I think xanthan is the only thing that might work here (still not sure with 6%).
I also think you have too much of everything in that formula. I would get rid of proteins and quats. 

Yes I was informed by another member about the sodium carbomer too. How do you know when the product breaks? my serum seems to still be a homogenous mixture… although It is in an amber glass, I can’t be entirely certain. 

I have food grade xantham gum, do you think that will work? 

[ETcellphone]

Dr_Sara said:

That is too bad.🙁 Everyone reacts differently to ingredients. My daughter does very well with a cream containing lanolin and mineral oil.

Have you tried a moisture cream with honey and propolis? Honey (mel) is emollient, and healing. Propolis (propolis cera) decreases sebum production. 🐝

Apparently Jojoba oil (Simmondsia chinensis seed oil) is the plant oil that is most similar to human sebum. Can you tolerate jojoba? 

I’m jealous of your daughter! So lucky. Kinda makes you nostalgic for the 1940s when they used all of those cold creams and heavier products.

I have tried honey on my face, it seemed to cause slight irritation but not necessarily acne. Maybe if I try it at a smaller percent? This was years ago. I have tried royal jelly a few years back as well with similar experience. I’m telling you my skin is a total diva lol. 

You’re right about the jojoba oil, I have heard the same thing. The oil broke me out, but I have recently been reminded of jojoba esters… I wonder if that would be any different? 

[ETcellphone]

chemicalmatt said:

I love the suggestions by @Dr_Sara and @czkld Old School ingredients, you cannot go wrong. @ETcellphone understand that most really comedogenic ingredients are triglyceride oils and their derivatives, such sweet almond oil, grapeseed oil, decyl oleate, isopropyl palmitate. Avoid these and you should be good to go. 

Thank you for your reply and suggestions. I can’t use lanolin on my face because it does cause acne for me, as well as the petrolatum, unfortunately. If my skin could tolerate it, I would absolutely be using a cream that has those 2 ingredients, because they are amazing at retaining moisture. For me, though, I end up with irritation and acne. 

[ETcellphone]

czkld said:

Maybe not the most elegant, but petrolatum is non-comedogenic, and its the gold standard for TEWL reduction. Although with some work you can probably make it feel nice ^^

You don’t know how much I WISH I could use petrolatum on my face. Yes it is considered non comedogenic, and cannot go into the pores, however with my skin, it does cause acne. Which I don’t understand. I wonder if there is a difference in using it applied to the skin from the jar vs. mineral oil in a small percent added to a serum? 

[ETcellphone]

Dr_Sara said:

back to basics… maybe lanolin

unfortunately lanolin breaks me out

[ETcellphone]

zacchaeus said:

Try using betaine. Check this out.

https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1338445.pdf?bs=16087&b=377838&st=20&r=asia&ind=personalcare

Thanks. I am learning more and more about betaine, I didn’t realize it was so popular. Do you find betaine to provide superior moisture over, say, glycerin? I’m thinking about if I had to make a serum with only 3 humectants and water, do you think betaine would be good enough to be chosen for 1 of those 3?

[ETcellphone]

zetein said:

Xylitol is quite good. It’s a sufficient humectant and easy to buy, though could be tacky at high level same as glycerin…

Evaluation of xylitol as an agent that controls the growth of skin microbes: Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus epidermidis, and Cutibacterium acnes

http://www.kjom.org/journal/view.html?uid=185&pn=lastest&vmd=Full#:~:text=Xylitol%20is%20a%20natural%20sugar%20alcohol%20that%20is,the%20presence%20or%20absence%20of%201%25%20%28w%2Fv%29%20and

Thank you for your reply. Do you know a good place to purchase it? I had been having a discussion with another member on finding Aquaxyl, which contains xylitol as 1 of its 3 components, and expressed it was very difficult for me to get. I am in the United States