[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

Since phenonip and germall have different components you can use both if you want a product to be bulletproof. I often do this (germall goes to cool down phase). Regarding lip products, I don’t think germall can be incorporated into an anhydrous balm but if it’s an emulsion you can try. Regarding selling, I think that if you decide to sell you should prioritize safety as much as you can. I assume you buy ingredients from repackagers not from suppliers directly. Ingredients sold by repackagers are compromised from the day one. Big companies can use Euxyl PE 9010 and run PET many times to see if it works (and for them it does) but the same 9010 won’t work for someone who is making at home. Don’t get me wrong, germall is a decent preservative, but have a look into combining it with phenonip in some products.

If I combine them, I wouldn’t use both at maximum usage rate, or would I? 0.5% Germall Plus is okay to combine with 1% Phenonip? Or too much? I really like the idea of combining preservatives actually. 

[emma1985]

Glycolic Acid is said to be a humectant.. Stearic Acid is occlusive/film forming. Dimethicone is occlusive. Glycerin and Butylene Glycol are effective humectants. Personally I think Shea Butter is one of the most moisturizing ingredients ever. So it’s a combination of everything.

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

@emma1985, phenonip is a blend of several parabens and phenoxyethanol and needs heating to reduce possibility of some of the parabens migration to oil phase. It’s generally quite robust. Germall has some limitations: heat sensitive, not allowed under some regulations for applications on large areas, and if I am not wrong there are some limitations for spray products. Germall is great with surfactants (doesn’t mess up viscosity) and in formulations where transparency is important.

Thank you! I have worshipped at the altar of Germall Plus for so many years but when I read that parabens are (kind of? More?) bulletproof I thought about switching. I want to start selling on a small scale in the future so it’s really important to me that I have extremely robust preservation. I like Germall Plus because I can use it in both water based products (toners and serums,) emulsions and cold process emulsions. It seems phenonip can’t believe used in water based products or cold processed products. It seems Germall Plus is more versatile. Think I’ll stick with it. Thank you so much for the feedback. 

Do you have any thoughts on the use of Germall Plus in lip products? I’m thinking about making a lip cream (my lips like a lot of water/hydration in addition to moisture and occlusion.). I think Germall Plus is allowed in lip products in the US but not in the EU. This concerns me a bit. I think Geogard Ect is lip safe but I did a little research and it seems it’s not as effective and broad spectrum as Germall Plus.

[emma1985]

I don’t see what age has to do with it. In fact, in my opinion, all claims like like “for oily skin,” “for dry, dehydrated skin,” etc is marketing BS. Nothing more. The very idea of skin types is BS. Dry skin is a skin condition, not an inherent, permanent “skin type” like people think..when I was on prescription acne topicals, my skin condition was temporarily dry. When I first started taking an androgenic oral contraceptive, my skin condition was temporarily oily. 

I think people who have a very black and white view of “skin types” as permanent characteristic have simply fallen for the BS and internalized skincare marketing.

I’m glad skincare companies are moving away from marketing like this (The Ordinary, Drunk Elephant, etc.)

Furthermore it’s complete BS that people with oily skin shouldn’t use oils on their skin. There is nothing that supports this assumption. 

Sure, people that are currently experiencing oily skin may PREFER not to use a heavy, greasy moisturizer simply because that might not be comfortable for them. But there’s absolutely nothing that supports the idea that they SHOULDN’T or CAN’T use heavier, oil containing moisturizers. 

Just my opinion.

Rant over. 

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

Phenonip and germall plus (depends on the product)

Which is more robust for o/w emulsions? Thank you.

[emma1985]

I only use Liquid Germall Plus. 

[emma1985]

I don’t see any actual oils. There are some oil soluble ingredients, if that’s what you mean. Ceramides are skin identical lipids but not proper oils. 

[emma1985]

*perhaps I should have said visible air bubbles.

i said instant emulsification because I feel like I get a much faster blend using the homogenizer than I do my immersion blender and my overhead stirrer on high speed. Perhaps more importantly, with my immersion blender, when I take breaks I often get separation, but no separation during breaks with the homogenizer. When I use the immersion blender I invariably end up with air bubbles. No air bubbles that I can see with the homogenizer:

[emma1985]

Isn’t Xanthan Gum notorious for causing soaping? Dimethicone is gold standard imo but some other ingredients that I think help are Lauryl Laurate, Isopropyl Myristate and Squalane/Hemi Squalane. All add a ton of glide which is how I suspect they help (I think this might be called low surface tension.) You can try Dimethicone alternatives like Natrasil and Daikon Seed Extract but I’ve used both and in my experience neither works nearly as well.

I agree with the suggestion that 202 causes less soaping, I used no Dimethicone in my last 202 emulsion and had no soaping (though I did use some of the other ingredients I named.)

My first step would be removing Xanthan Gum, though.

In my experience Cetyl Alcohol helps a lot but you need at least 1.5%. I would remove Xanthan and increase Cetyl Alcohol. 

[emma1985]

ketchito said:

@Zink I’d use a 1000 cps dimethicone, increasing it frm 1 to 2%.

Hi, is there any reason you are recommending 1000 cps over, for example, 350? I’m just curious because I have 350 and am wondering what 1000 has to offer. 

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

For some reason I don’t like how mineral oil feels and use hydrogenated polyisobutene (it comes in different viscosites) when I need a liquid hydrocarbon. It’s similar to squalane, so you might want to explore it too. Although it’s unreasonably expensive.

I love Squalene and Hemi Squalane but find (Squalene, especially) to be ridiculously expensive. I did come across hydrogenated polyisobutene yesterday when I was perusing Making Cosmetics. I see hydrogenated polyisobutene ALL THE TIME on commercial ingredients lists. Will definitely pick some up. Thanks again!! 

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

This material is pretty nice although it’s considered a replacement for lard rather than petrolatum https://www.ulprospector.com/en/eu/PersonalCare/Detail/25251/557991/SOFTISAN-378 also sold by MakingCosmetics if you are buying in small quantities. It’s used in lipbalms and moisturizers for very dry skin (like this one https://incidecoder.com/products/clinique-smart-night-custom-repair-moisturizer-very-dry-to-dry-skin). Having said that, petrolatum is a gold standard and I have not seen a single study suggesting there’s anything better than petrolatum. Also petrolatum is cheaper than any alternatives and easy to find. Btw silicones are not great at reducing TEWL, as they aren’t very occlusive. 

I actually have Softisan. I purchased from FSS as it was advertised as an ingredient that could prevent graininess (i love Shea Butter, Mango Butter and Tucuma butter but struggle with graininess when formulating with them.) I will absolutely try this next week, thank you so much!! 

[emma1985]

Pattsi said:

Tridecyl Trimellitate + Isostearyl Isostearate

Not sure about the first one but I think I’ve seen isostearyl isostearate around, will check it out, thank you! 

[emma1985]

Pharma said:

I decided against stick blenders when I stumbled upon that crap cheap Ultra-Turrax-like Chinese knock-off thingamajig. I ordered it a few days ago.

I wonder whether or not it will be any good or last long… likely not useful for more than 1 litre but that’s fine with me and probably not doing well with high viscosity emulsions (not so fine with me).

I’ll keep you in the loop.

I have it and it works an absolute charm for me. Instant (seemingly) emulsification, it’s a beast and introduces 0 air. I will say, you have to turn the knob about halfway for it to get going. I don’t know why but someone in my Facebook group said the same. 

You CANNOT stir with it. It’s far too powerful. I use it first to emulsify then switch to my overhead with propeller attachment.

It homogenizes extremely well while the product is warm/hot and liquid, the efficacy decreases as the product gains viscosity (I’m sure you know this.)

Make sure you clean the attachments really well before using it. I ended up with some metal bits my first time using it. 

You will never need to use it at the highest speed. Not even close.

[emma1985]

I would start by cutting out the Stearic Acid. It’s draggy. Replace with more Cetyl (glide-y.) 

I also love the following ingredients for adding glide:

Lauryl Laurate (super super glide-y)
Isoamyl Laurate
Coco Caprylate Caprate
Neossance Hemi Squalane
Ethylhexyl Palmitate
Propanediol

[emma1985]

Nope. I never ever ever heat and hold.

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

Why dimethicone is ok but petrolatum isn’t? Anyway, you might find this thread useful 
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1021/petrolatum-replacement-the-best-natural-ingredient-to-use

I just don’t like how it feels. I’m not a natural formulator. Thanks for the link. 

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

I highly recommend reducing oil phase to 17-18% if you want to avoid adding high melting point wax. Look at Evonik’s formulas, the only one with high oil phase has like 3% of high melting point waxes. That kills the texture completely (although it’s obviously makes it more stable). 1.5-2% Abil EM90, 0.5-0.75% Isolan GPS, 1-1.5% of either NaCl, or Mg Sulfate or Zn Sulfate (a must! for stability). If you use sodium lactate of Sodium PCA reduce salt to 1% but don’t remove it. Now, if it’s a cold process and you want a lighter gel like texture use Zn Stearate at 0.5-0.7% and something like hydrated silica or silica dimethyl silylate (sold in Italy and Greece) and keep Dimethicone at less than 20%. If its a hot process you can up oils but follow what Evonik suggested in the formula with 40% of oils where they added tons of waxes. It’s going to have long rheology and will be runny. You can try both options and see which you like best. And which one is more stable. W/Si are tricky beasts.

Thank you so much!! This is incredibly helpful. I’m not ready for W/Si yet so I’ll stick with W/O with 17-18% oil phase.

I will use 1.5% Abil EM90, 0.75% Isolan, 1% Magnesium Sulfate and 1% each of Sodium Lactate and PCA. Per your instructions.

I found some USP Magnesium Sulfate, hope that will work fine (sold as Epsom Salt.)

I will be heating the oil phase but not the water phase as discussed in my original post, per provided sample formulations.

Thanks again!!

[emma1985]

I noticed that too. 

[emma1985]

ngarayeva001 said:

Is it Abil EM90? Check Evonik’s website for information. If yes, it only works with very low oil phase. It also needs another emulsifier, btw isolan gps is a good idea for pairing. 

Okay I obtained Isolan, now how do I use it and at what concentration? I’m formulating with 25% oil phase and 2.5% Cetyl PEG PPG-10 1 Dimethicone (Abil EM90.) How do I use Isolan as a co-emulsifer?

[emma1985]

Okay friends, I ended up finding Isolan due to a dear friend, now how on earth do I use it?

[emma1985]

The ones that come to mind for me are BTMS 50 and Penstia Powder. And Dimethicone.

[emma1985]

It’s not recommended because only using BTMS 25 will lead to one of two things:

1) an unstable emulsion
2) a very thick/viscous emulsion because you have to use twice the amount of BTMS 25 in order to reach the emulsification “power” of BTMS 50. BTMS 25 contains 75% Cetearyl Alcohol, that is already a ton of Cetearyl Alcohol and you are using at 2x the concentration. 

Also, using 2 emulsifers will almost always lead to more stable emulsions. You will notice that a lot of commercial products contain multiple emulsifers. 

And yes, BTMS 50 is more expensive.

[emma1985]

The “Astralagus extract” is likely 90-95% water and 5-10% Astragalus. They get away with it because it’s an “extract complex.” And then they get to advertise the product as water free. LOL.

[emma1985]

For penetration enhancement, Dimethyl Isosorbide outperforms PG imo.