[dmh0023]

emma1985 said:

I’ve used Softisan and yes I think it helps slightly. Softisan is itself grainy which is quite weird. But graininess doesn’t come through after melter and cooled. 

Hi! I wanted to give everyone an update on this. I added in softisan as well as tempering the shea butter and haven’t had any issues with graininess since. I left a jar of the balm out in the sun repeatedly over the course of a couple weeks and it started to develop tiny ones, but for regular use I think it’s great. Thank you all so much for the help.

[dmh0023]

Also, does anyone have experience with Softisan 378 for this purpose? I already use cera bellina in the formula, so that’s out of the runnings. 

[dmh0023]

EVchem said:

When you say contamination are you worried about microbes or just particulates like dust? Germs are everywhere, that’s why you have a robust preservative but obviously do what you can to minimize. to reliably keep out particulates it will be much easier if you have a set room to work in with positive pressure and clean surfaces

Mostly particulates, but I’d also like to reduce the chances of microbes getting into the ingredient as well, though I know they’re everywhere and it’s almost impossible to prevent that. 

[dmh0023]

Thank you, EVchem. Very much appreciated. Thank you for the details and discussion of options, rather than stating you know how to do this and then never responding. 

[dmh0023]

Bump @mikethair would you mind letting me know what you use, please?

[dmh0023]

mikethair said:

In my opinion, it would be a challenge if attempting this if your production area is not GMP certified.  Ours is, and we work with this size container on a daily basis.

Thank you. How exactly do you do it? What equipment do you use?

[dmh0023]

For sure.

 

[dmh0023]

letsalcido said:

@dmh0023 to clarify what ngarayeva001 said:

Cera bellina has a melting point of 65C when pure. When you combine it with your oils, the melting point will change, your specific mixture of oils based on what you said melts well below 50C. By adding more wax or butters with higher melting points you can drive up the melting point of your mixture, thus preventing it from turning soft or partially liquid in your bathroom, car or purse at warm ambient temperatures.

You can increase the percentage of cera bellina, or add other higher melting point waxes to it (like bees wax or candelilla wax). This is was ngarayeva001 recommended, not to heat up what you currently have to 65C.

You should only need to heat up your ingredients enough to turn liquid and be able to mix them thoroughly. If 50C achieves that for your mixture, than that’s perfect. Just mix thoroughly for a minute or two.

Thank you for this. Oddly enough, when I let it reach 150F for a couple of minutes and then homogenized before cool down, I haven’t had any issues with the weeping since. I’m not sure why this is, as cera bellina has the highest melting point of all my ingredients. But there you have it!

klangridge said:

@dmh0023 Is there any chance it could be condensation just from the air in the jar rather than an ingredient coming out of the product? Most obvious way to tell would be if it appears on the inside of the container or lid as well as on the product surface. I often find this happens with products placed on stability if they’re stored on a windowsill as they’re subject to more temperature fluctuations than the other conditions. 

Probably isn’t, but just thought it might be worth checking before you have a play around with the formula!

I don’t believe it’s moisture. I’m actually unsure what it was.

[dmh0023]

ngarayeva001 said:

You need to add wax with a higher melting point to prevent that from happening. Cera Bellina is pretty soft in general and it’s melting point is around 65 if I am not mistaken. Have a look at candelilla or even beeswax. 

Also, out of curiosity, if 65C is the melting point of CB, then if it melts it’s at least at 65C? I feel like it melts at a lower temperature than that. The product is clear and homogenous when it’s poured, and I usually pour at 48.9Cish. Does it need to be higher to ensure it’s fully incorporated, regardless of the product looking fully melted?

[dmh0023]

ngarayeva001 said:

You need to add wax with a higher melting point to prevent that from happening. Cera Bellina is pretty soft in general and it’s melting point is around 65 if I am not mistaken. Have a look at candelilla or even beeswax. 

Thank you, this is good to know! I will get it to at least 65C  to add the CB. Do I need to hold it at this temperature for a certain period of time? 

LuisJavier said:

Maybe the essential oils are sweating out at the top? If this is the case, I think that the more the EO%, the worse the sweating would be. 

Good call. I’ll have to check the next time I see it, but I have a sneaking feeling it isn’t. One of the main essential oils is very vivid and this doesn’t look especially bright.

[dmh0023]

Copy that! Also, I like that you know exactly which episode it was in. Thank you for this, Perry, you’ve been super helpful. 

[dmh0023]

Thank you, Perry! I listen to your podcast regularly, you’re actually one of the few podcasts I get excited about when a new episode comes out. You and Valerie are great. I keep hearing retinol referred to as the “gold standard” in active ingredients - do you think they are ineffective? Or is it that retinyl palmitate is just too weak after it goes through conversion to retinoic acid?

[dmh0023]

Hi Pharma, the balm is shea butter, squalane, cera bellina, tocopherol, chamomile essential oil, thyme essential oil, cedarwood essential oil.

I heat to around 130-140 to homogenize, hold at that temp while mixing occasionally for about 20 minutes, and then when it cools down to 115-120ish I add the retinyl palmitate, quickly pour and pop into the freezer for a few minutes.

The packaging is an opaque glass jar that allows zero light in. 

[dmh0023]

Hi Perry! It’s not separating, but I do know retinoids are notoriously finicky to work with, so I’m wondering if I need to do anything further to stabilize the retinyl palmitate and ensure it stays active? As of now, the physical properties of the formula perform beautifully

[dmh0023]

As an addendum: I’m a formulator/skincare line owner and have three products currently, so am interested in filling/packing my three current products and developing additional products with a lab. 

[dmh0023]

And it could help me slim down for summer. Maybe you’re on to something. lol

[dmh0023]

Pharma, thank you! I really appreciate the attention to detail. I am going to mix up a little formulation soon and take your advice. Keep it simple and go from there. Sorry for the brief reply, but I’m just in from work and exhausted. I’ll update progress after the first batch or two

[dmh0023]

Yea, I think epsom is the way to go, though I’ll probably mix in some himalayan. And you’re right - I bet the citric is aimed at balancing Ph. Should’ve occurred to me. 

I also agree the more I think about it. I don’t think sea water is the way I’ll differentiate the product… it’s not the most appealing thing. I live in Los Angeles and it isn’t exactly the most pristine water quality here, plus all the extra gunk. Maybe I’ll just add in some sea minerals and voila. 

I’ll let y’all know how the tinkering goes. Thank you for the advice. 

[dmh0023]

It’s ok, I overreacted a bit as well and we all have bad days. Water under the bridge  

Anywho, yea basically my main concern with this salt spray formula is how to create an emulsification system with a given set of ingredients. I have an HLB calculator but I haven’t used it much to be honest. I don’t want to use the same ingredients as the B&B formula, but I thought I could glean the most important ingredients  - I want to use some different extracts and perhaps some actual sea water as well. 

I’m working with a hair stylist on this project and that is his favorite salt spray, so trying to achieve similar results with a different formula. If anyone could chime in with some advice on the emulsification system that would be awesome. Specifically how do I factor in the extracts and emollients to the HLB calculation. If not, I’ll just wait until all the ingredients I ordered arrive and just start playing around with them. 

[dmh0023]

Hi Elaine, 

Thank you for the response. I read it as a bit snarky? 

True, I could have removed all of the scent ingredients from the ingredient list I pasted, as they obviously aren’t essential to the formula, but I didn’t know if that would make the use of one of the emulsifiers obsolete. I am not trying to copy the formula verbatim. As stated in my original post I am trying to find which ingredients are essential to a salt spray formula. 

Seeing as my original post may be a bit confusing, let me refine the request with some further questions. 

1. Are the Kelp and Seaweed extract the reason for the emulsification system, and/or is it to keep the epsom salt suspended at a higher concentration? I assume it would precipitate out of the formula or refuse to dissolve if there was too much salt?

2. What purpose does the citric acid serve other than preservation? Does it give a specific feel to the product or a desirable feel to hair?

3. Since I’m planning to cut out the scent ingredients and opt for a more natural option, a la essential oils, will I still need to use an emulsification system if I don’t add extracts and don’t add emollient ingredients? If so, would there be an emulsifier you could suggest? I have some Polysorbate 20 on hand and some Cromollient as well. 

4. I believe Isoceteth-20 is an emollient - is there a more natural option I could go with, such as jojoba or maybe some fractionated coconut, and still get good results?

I am not a chemist so I apologize for the briefness of my original post. I wasn’t trying to have someone build a formula for me from scratch. For what it’s worth I’m also traveling at the moment and am working on this plus a dozen other things. I have posted to this forum before and tried to offer advice where I could, and have always tried to be respectful to other posters. I might be shooting myself in the foot a bit for calling your post snarky but I’ve had a long day and, though I appreciate the advice you offer and see where you’re coming from, didn’t appreciate the way you made me feel a bit like an ungracious beggar. 

Cheers,

D

[dmh0023]

This happened with my french green clay mask as well. I added some oils to the mask as I felt it was too drying, and it nipped the problem in the bud. Maybe give it a shot. Good luck!

[dmh0023]

Howdy. From Los Angeles I’m curious as to what running a beauty company in Mexico is like!

[dmh0023]

Wow. That is an amazing resource. Is it basically just a big database of ingredients and where to get them?!

[dmh0023]

Thank you! I am cyber stalking them at this very moment. I appreciate the help  

[dmh0023]

Hi guys. Sorry for the delay! The product is an oil cleanser. Basically a blend of different vegetable oils and an emulsifier (cromollient) that causes the oils to rinse off the face easily. 

I would LOVE to suspend mica in the cleanser, but it all floats to the bottom after a few hours. I actually posted a topic a couple weeks ago about that, but couldn’t find a resolution. I couldn’t figure out what to use as a suspending agent since the product has no water. 

I received some liquid lecithin recently so will be playing around with that. But yea, I’m trying to achieve a mica/pearly look and so far have been continually defeated, haha.