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Salt Spray Formula Help
Hi guys,
So I’m working on a salt spray product for hair. To add volume and texture. I really like the Bumble and Bumble formula so I’m trying to figure out which ingredients in the formula are essential and which are not. Any help would be appreciated. Here is the ingredient list:Water, Magnesium Sulfate, Macrocystis Pyrifera (Kelp) Extract, Ascophyllum Nodosum Extract, Isoceteth-20, Citric Acid, PPG-5-Ceteth-20, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate, Citronellol, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hydroxyisohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde, Linalool, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Fragrance (Parfum).Also what is the efficacy of using actual sea water in the formula in place of filtered water? I was thinking I could boil it to disinfect it, but would the left over organic material in the water eventually rot/go bad and cause problems?Cheers,D -
10 Replies
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You may first want to visit the thread on the best way to ask for technical help from the forum.
The chemists here are incredibly generous with their time and knowledge, but they’re not going to build a formula from scratch from you, especially one copied from an existing product. You have to do at least some homework beforehand.
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Hi Elaine,
Thank you for the response. I read it as a bit snarky?True, I could have removed all of the scent ingredients from the ingredient list I pasted, as they obviously aren’t essential to the formula, but I didn’t know if that would make the use of one of the emulsifiers obsolete. I am not trying to copy the formula verbatim. As stated in my original post I am trying to find which ingredients are essential to a salt spray formula.Seeing as my original post may be a bit confusing, let me refine the request with some further questions.1. Are the Kelp and Seaweed extract the reason for the emulsification system, and/or is it to keep the epsom salt suspended at a higher concentration? I assume it would precipitate out of the formula or refuse to dissolve if there was too much salt?2. What purpose does the citric acid serve other than preservation? Does it give a specific feel to the product or a desirable feel to hair?3. Since I’m planning to cut out the scent ingredients and opt for a more natural option, a la essential oils, will I still need to use an emulsification system if I don’t add extracts and don’t add emollient ingredients? If so, would there be an emulsifier you could suggest? I have some Polysorbate 20 on hand and some Cromollient as well.4. I believe Isoceteth-20 is an emollient - is there a more natural option I could go with, such as jojoba or maybe some fractionated coconut, and still get good results?I am not a chemist so I apologize for the briefness of my original post. I wasn’t trying to have someone build a formula for me from scratch. For what it’s worth I’m also traveling at the moment and am working on this plus a dozen other things. I have posted to this forum before and tried to offer advice where I could, and have always tried to be respectful to other posters. I might be shooting myself in the foot a bit for calling your post snarky but I’ve had a long day and, though I appreciate the advice you offer and see where you’re coming from, didn’t appreciate the way you made me feel a bit like an ungracious beggar.Cheers,D -
I apologize for coming off snarky. I’m not one of the chemists/experts on the board, only an interested reader, and I was admittedly grumpy yesterday for reasons that had nothing to do with you or this board. So, again, my apologies.
I can offer one answer to your second post — an emulsification system in your example product will have nothing to do with the concentration of salt in the formulation. Emulsification is an oil/water process by definition.
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It’s ok, I overreacted a bit as well and we all have bad days. Water under the bridge
Anywho, yea basically my main concern with this salt spray formula is how to create an emulsification system with a given set of ingredients. I have an HLB calculator but I haven’t used it much to be honest. I don’t want to use the same ingredients as the B&B formula, but I thought I could glean the most important ingredients - I want to use some different extracts and perhaps some actual sea water as well.I’m working with a hair stylist on this project and that is his favorite salt spray, so trying to achieve similar results with a different formula. If anyone could chime in with some advice on the emulsification system that would be awesome. Specifically how do I factor in the extracts and emollients to the HLB calculation. If not, I’ll just wait until all the ingredients I ordered arrive and just start playing around with them. -
I don’t have professional formulating experience with this type of hair care product, so please take anything I say as tentative. However, I know that it’s a common practice in some circles to use epsom salts (i.e. magnesium sulfate) dissolved in water as a DIY curl-enhancing spray. (I have curly hair, which is how I heard about it.) That may be the basis for this product. In that case, the seaweed extracts are probably the only other “therapeutic” ingredients, as the rest look like fragrance chemicals, solubilizers, and preservatives. Citric acid could be used to bring the pH to an acceptable level for use in hair and for the preservation system.
As for using sea water, I have doubts that it would be practical, due to preservation issues. I do have to say that as a customer, I wouldn’t ever buy a leave-in hair care product that contained sea water. I have too many memories of coming home from a day at the beach, my hair caked in the gunk from dried sea water. Very unpleasant associations for me, no label appeal whatsoever.
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Yea, I think epsom is the way to go, though I’ll probably mix in some himalayan. And you’re right - I bet the citric is aimed at balancing Ph. Should’ve occurred to me.
I also agree the more I think about it. I don’t think sea water is the way I’ll differentiate the product… it’s not the most appealing thing. I live in Los Angeles and it isn’t exactly the most pristine water quality here, plus all the extra gunk. Maybe I’ll just add in some sea minerals and voila.I’ll let y’all know how the tinkering goes. Thank you for the advice. -
Hi D,
Isoceteth-20 and PPG-5-Ceteth-20 are the two surfactants in your mix which, as you
said before, help with solubilising fragrance constituents and perfume,
i.e. Citronellol, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hydroxyisohexyl 3-Cyclohexene Carboxaldehyde, Linalool, Limonene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Fragrance (Parfum). They likely
serve as part of the hair product as well, for example as wetter to
prevent the spray from simply pearling off your hair. They likely affect hair texture and combability in a positive way but how exactly, I do not know as I never tried these two.They are PEG derivatives like polysorbate 20 but are linear molecules and a lot better suited for
‘fragrances’. Cromollinet on the other hand is a similar ‘ceteth’ where I have no clue how well it’ll really work. Certainly someone else can answer that for you.Are there ‘more natural’ alternatives? Yes! Cocoyl proline, tradname Natisol, is an amino acid derivative of coconut oil and is marketed for its great suitability for exactly that purpose. I haven’t tried it yet myself as I don’t know where to get small quantities but what I hear about it sounds great. Only drawback is, it’s an anionic surfactant which by nature is prone to not tolerate magnesium ions as well… Other ‘natural’ non-ionic surfactants would be sugar derivatives where I have no personal experience on how well they will work with essential oils; though, I’ve been told that alkyl polyglucose derivatives do a good job in this regard.
Neither surfactants nor seaweed extracts do anything positive regarding magnesium sulfate (if ever, it’ll be quite the opposite). Epsom salt is not suspended in water but due its high solubility a true solution and doesn’t need anything for that except water.
Citric Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate:
Preservatives as already mentioned. Citric acid is very helpful in this
preparation as it functions as ‘sequestrant’ (chelate) for all the trace
elements contained in the seaweed extracts which support chemical an microbial degradation. If it really buffers or just lowers pH depends on what else is in the spray, for example what kind of seaweed extract. Anyway, I wouldn’t remove it from your personal modification.Water, Magnesium Sulfate, Macrocystis Pyrifera (Kelp) Extract and Ascophyllum
Nodosum Extract are what remains. As said, you can and should try a simple solution of epsom salt in water and see how and how much it differs from the original and go from there. The seaweed extracts can be anything, there’s a bunch of very different products (for example carrageen is extracted from seaweed) out there and you’ll never know what exactly is in the B&B formula. I don’t think that they affect the overall properties of the formula much and they most certainly don’t contribute to solubility, emulsion, or the like.Do not use plain seawater! For one, it contains, if memory serves me right, between 2 and 6% salt, though most often around 3.5% and hence you don’t know how much salt you actually have and may not be able to repeat the exact same formulation. On the other hand, there’s a whole bunch of organic matter and living organisms in there too. Better buy sea salt. You could make your own by slowly evaporating seawater but buying sea salt or other forms of unrefined salts is way more practical and limits contaminations. Although sea salt can have soothing effects on the skin, be aware that too much of it will not be very nice for your hair and can make it strawy (not sure if I used this term correctly)
. At a rough estimate I’d say you’ll have to cut down 1 weight part of Epsom salt for every 2-4 weight parts of sea salt you add in order to avoid ‘oversalting’ your product. Did I already mention that cocoyl proline is an anionic surfactant and will not as readily tolerate higher amounts of salts?PS Sorry, there’s something weird happening with the formate…
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Pharma, thank you! I really appreciate the attention to detail. I am going to mix up a little formulation soon and take your advice. Keep it simple and go from there. Sorry for the brief reply, but I’m just in from work and exhausted. I’ll update progress after the first batch or two
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You should drink some of it… the Epsom salt will certainly help you to get an ‘excuse’ to stay at home.
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And it could help me slim down for summer. Maybe you’re on to something. lol
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