[DeedeeUkulele]

Pharma said:

Removing hydrogen peroxide would remove one of the possible intermediates in one of the AA degradation pathways. However, there are some issues with that: For one, this won’t stop degradation and for another, you’d have to use a solvent which allows full activity of SOD (this usually means more water and some electrolytes).

A thiol or sulfur based antioxidant would work. Also, use airless and lightproof containers, a good chelate and increase viscosity.

@@Pharma

Great, I’ll keep this in mind. Thank you so much! 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Pharma said:

A: They mention glycol ether (which the products I’ve seen do not contain) and B: the patent is over 15 years old… wouldn’t it be expired?

Also, that patent doesn’t seem right from a scientific angle. Sure, many things in cosmetics aren’t as we think they should theoretically be because theory only goes that far.

Apart from that: Why do most not use an antioxidant which regenerates oxidised ascorbic acid and/or captures oxygen or a ‘suicide’ inhibitor of pigment formation?

@Pharma

20 years for a patent. In 2025, everyone’s gonna go crazy making LAA+FA+Vit E serums left and right! 

I know nothing about chemistry, but a quick and superficial Google search led me to superoxide dismutase. Would that fit the bill? 

[DeedeeUkulele]

evchem2 said:

Are you in the US? I see people working on these types of serums constantly, if they were taken to market are they not in violation of L’Oreals current patent? 
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050154054A1/en

Not from the US but this doesn’t violate L’oreal’s patent. You can only infringe a patent when your product contains every element in the claim. For example, the infringing serum would have exactly the following:

5% to 20% L-ascorbic acid,

0.5% to 5.0% of a cinnamic acid derivative selected from the group consisting of p-coumaric acid, ferulic acid, caffeic acid, sinapinic acid, a derivative thereof, and a combination thereof,

10% to 60% of a solvent comprising a glycol ether and an alkanediol;

0.5% to 1.5% phenoxyethanol;

0.3% to 1.5% panthenol;

0.5% to 5.0% triethanolamine;

0.05% to 0.3% sodium hyaluronate;

1.5% to 5.0% surfactant; and

water to 100%,

the composition having a pH of no more than about 3.5.

This is why you see a lot of LAA+FA+Vit E serums in the market. Their workaround is pH higher than 3.5 or they don’t use ethoxydiglycol, etc. In my serum’s case, it doesn’t even have a pH. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

@Pharma

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense. 

I have another LAA+FA sample stored in a closed bottle, the top is still oxidizing. I had planned to package this in airless pumps but I guess there’s just no avoiding the yellowing ????

RE: the “electron sink”, I had a sinking feeling (no pun intended!) the LAA and FA were just using each other up. And here I was with grand plans to throw in some resveratrol as well! Considering the LAA-only solution is doing okay so far, I probably won’t need co-antioxidants right? I was really hoping to have a great marketing story with the FA and resveratrol. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

MarkBroussard said:

@DeedeeUkulele

You really don’t need to heat the propanediol to get the Ferulic Acid in solution.  It will dissolve in room temp propanediol with stirring.  Ferulic Acid does have a yellowish tint to it.  Try cutting the ferulic acid down to 0.5%

Thanks, will try at 0.5%. The problem is it starts out champagne-colored when fresh but turns an oxidized shade of yellow after just a few days. Maybe the ferulic acid I have is low quality? Because I really can’t get it to dissolve at room temperature at all. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

From my experience, I get cloudiness when I add Lamesoft PO65 in the water phase. Adding it in a separate surfactant phase solved the issue. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Shams said:

@Paprik. Thanks for that.
alpha bisabolol is oil soluble and I need to avoid oils in my formula
would you kindly tell me at what % are you using allantoin? Doesn’t it recrystallise?
I have tried it at only 0.2% and have a feeling that a turbid hazzy fine layer is developing at the bottom . However it goes away with minimal shaking. So i was suspecting that’s allantoin
TIA

You’ll need to heat allantoin to 80°C to make sure it’s completely dissolved. I’ve never had issues with it that way. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

PhilGeis said:

@DeedeeUkulele
Please note Glucosamine instability @37C in the cited article appears to be in context of come concentration of ammonia and phosphate buffered to an (in abstract) pH.  Can’t access the paper itself - any idea what these other specifcs were?

Thanks for pointing that out. Admittedly, I was just quickly looking for data to confirm that NAG  oxidizes under certain conditions. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the paper myself. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Bill_Toge said:

like many amines, tranexamic acid oxidises and turns yellow/brown over time

Thank you, I wasn’t aware of that. I didn’t think it was the tranexamic acid because I didn’t find any data on it specifically turning brown. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ said:

This looks like Mallard reaction taking place over time between free glucose in AG and amine group in Tranexamic acid .Try a knockout to confirm.

Oh, that’s very interesting. Okay, will try a knockout and get back here with an update. Thank you! 

Btw, this link (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26114422/) states that glucosamine degrades at 37°C. Assuming it really is Maillard reaction, does that mean the NAG in the serum is all but useless in the presence of tranexamic acid? 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Abdullah said:

Are those dots mold?

No, it’s just the dots on the paper underneath. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

ketchito said:

@DeedeeUkulele What type of product did you want to get? In the absence of water, you won’t get an emulsion. Rather, you’ll get a mixture of ingredients that will finally act according to their individual properties when applied to a surface. 

@ketchito That makes sense. However, I’m not trying to make an emulsion. It’s an oil gel, and I’ve succeeded in getting the viscosity and texture right (bouncy gel). I just don’t understand what’s causing the ceteareth-25 to act that way. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Gordof said:

I would suggest looking into the Raw materials from Alchemy 

Oil Gelling - Alchemy Ingredients (alchemy-ingredients.com)

the work really nice has a very pleasant feeling and can if Processed correctly be clear oil gels with a lot of water inside so the price gets down, 

Thank you! I was able to come up with my own blend from locally - available materials. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

@”DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ”

Great… Thank you! 

[DeedeeUkulele]

DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ said:

use 2% peg 140 distearate and add to water phase with surfactants before heat to 60-70C

Thank you! I’ll have to get my hands on some PEG 150 distearate to try this. Will it still give the same after feel as the peg 120?

[DeedeeUkulele]

ketchito said:

@DeedeeUkulele Are you heating your mixture when adding the PEG-120…? I recommend you to follow the way of addition recommende by Lubrizol in this example formula: https://www.ulprospector.com/es/la/PersonalCare/Detail/1813/741507/Daily-Intimate-Wash-Formulation-CL-B0123AandB%5BAP%5D?st=20

Yes, I always heat the phase that the PEG-120 goes in. I tried dissolving it in just water and glycerin, the solution remained water-thin. So I guess it really depends on surfactant level. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Are you using 90% lactic acid? (I’m assuming you’re trying to make 10% lactic acid). Adding sodium lactate to lactic acid would yield a higher pH than the acid alone, although you might need to add some NaOH to bring the pH up to 3 (I believe the ideal pH would be 3.5-3.. I’ve made some high strength lactic acid peels with sodium lactate, and even with a 1:1 ratio, I could only get the pH up a few decimal points, but keep in mind that’s with 50-65% lactic acid. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

chemicalmatt said:

That is a LOT of ozokerite and microcrystalline wax, my friend. The two are  chemically brothers, BTW. Ditch the Ceteareth-25 since your hopes appear to be dashed.  You got plenty of nonionic surfactant in there already.

Thank you for the feedback. 

I just estimated the ozokerite and microcrystalline wax based on various LOIs. I understand ozokerite is added for body and microcrystalline wax is to better bind oils?

At 45°C, this particular balm got glossy and separated a bit. I made another batch using 8% microcrystalline wax, 4% ozokerite, and 4% candelilla wax (horrible idea for this product), and it still melted at 45C.

[DeedeeUkulele]

You’re right about 2% NAG. I made this for myself and I don’t mind going for higher percentages in small batches. Can’t hurt haha. I’ll be using a 4% Niacinamide+2% NAG combo for selling.

[DeedeeUkulele]

ngarayeva001 said:

You have too many active ingredients at very high concentrations. Select two main ingredients and add everything else at a very low %

I’d really like to keep the TXA, niacinamide, and NAG combo since they’re found to work synergistically with one another. I did go for the maximum effective %, however. I’ll try lowering the % and see if it makes a difference. Thanks. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

bil7 said:

Polysorbate 80 will also deactivate propylene glycol ince i readed.
And the problem to stickness increase capric and  caprylic triglyceride may sort out problem trade name liponate gc .
Also can be added little peg 75 . Which will dry and make a smooth finish film on the skin and dnt tacky to hands

Thanks. I don’t have access to PEG 75 but will try adding some silicones. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

I forgot to mention the Polysorbate 80 is a solvent for tetrahydrodiferuloylmethane (the ingredient I don’t currently have) @ 1:4. The manufacturer claims it’s partially soluble in Dimethyl isosorbide but since I can’t try it out yet, I’m using Polysorbate 80 for now. 

[DeedeeUkulele]

Do you want the viscosity higher? I once made a gel cleanser containing 12% oil and thickened with Ultrez 20, xanthan gum (for flow), and PEG-120 methyl glucose dioleate. A couple days’ wait gave rise to a nice gel-like lotion texture.

[DeedeeUkulele]

Would a 10% blend of glycols be sufficient to lower water activity?

[DeedeeUkulele]

Of course 🙂 This is my planned preservation system:

0.2% tetrasodium EDTA

5% propanediol

1% Nipaguard EHP (phenoxyethanol, ethylhexylglycerin)

0.7 Gluconolactone

0.5% sodium benzoate

pH 4.5

Admittedly, this cleanser is pretty bug-friendly (green tea water, aloe vera juice, plant extract), so any suggestions/comments are welcome! Also, as much as I’d like to just use 0.5% Germall and call it a day, I’d like to avoid formaldehyde-releasers for the label appeal.