[David08848]

Thanks for your reply, Ruben.  I checked out the FDA registration site, which looks pretty straight-forward but when I got to the GMP certificate I saw a listing of a company who can provide you with one… for $495!  So already it may be a problem… but as I said before, I was just considering Amazon as an option.  I have seen some examples of “home crafters” work on Facebook and the pictures are frightening and the text even more frightening and they are selling this stuff online!  I was fortunate to learn very early on from guys like the late Maurice Hevey and Kevin Young (from the Yahoo Cosmetic Chemistry board…why isn’t he here?)  about appropriate procedures, working with formulas and learning where to get the best possible information and advice but so much of that sort of thing is in the past but fortunately Perry is still offering this place to us where we can share info and learn from some of the best here in the industry!  If there are changes like this being implemented by Amazon, they who is next and how much more stringent is the FDA doing to become with anyone out there in business selling topical cosmetics?  Only time will tell!

[David08848]

Thanks for discussing this topic.  I still have to read through everything to get a better picture of this issue.  I have been considering selling my shaving products on Amazon so I need to be aware of everything that is involved.  So much of my current business is involving shaving message boards and those as is the case with so many message boards out there are seeing less activity!  Please keep posting on this board as we don’t need to see another board dwindle down to nothing!  In the meantime, please keep posting your thoughts on this issue as they are helpful and appreciated!

[David08848]

Thanks, chemnc!  That’s what I needed to know!  The good thing is that I have some!

[David08848]

Aluminum Hydroxide?  I looked it up and got this as an answer:

“The pH level of aluminum hydroxide is 9.5” 

That may mean that the Aluminum Hydroxide is part of a soap-based emulsion in this product.  Let’s see if the experts here have any observations about this.  Good Luck to you, PeiHoong!

[David08848]

So, I did manage to finally find some information.
DPG - Dipropylene Glycol - not appropriate for soap or candles, though!
IPP - Isopropyl Palmitate
IPM - Isopropyl Myristate - seems like the most likely one to use!
IPA - not sure about this one!

[David08848]

I know what I know and I don’t know what I don’t know so I’ll put it right out there!  I am rethinking the potential products and right now the cleansing cream with similar anionic ingredients to the shaving cream which would leave behind some “slickness” to which the shaving cream could then be applied.  An after-shave “beard lube” type of product that is cationic and used after shaving the rinsing the face might be fine and have a nice smooth dry skin feel might work. 

I could also endeavor to emulate that product that tanelise recommended for the purpose of offering a “pre-shave” “shaving” and “post shave” type product might not be a bad idea.  (One thing I have noticed on boards like this is that some people with knowledge of an ingredient like BMTS and BMTS-50, see it as a hair conditioning ingredient only but when you look around online and go to sites like Prospector, check out vendors who sell them and find that they have sample formulations for facial creams and other things that contain BMTS other than hair products!  Sometimes you have to think outside the box.)

So either way, I could work on two products, one for pre-cleansing and the other post shave or I could work the cationic one for “pre-shave” “shaving” and “post shave” and have another product option for those who don’t like to lather shave and want to shave quickly and have a nice after-feel!  Sounds like a win win idea to me!  Suggestions? Observations?

[David08848]

Change in consistency with this type of product is the nature of the beast!  Often shaving cream batches were left to cure for several weeks for this to occur and pearlessence to develop.  If your product is too firm after this period then you have to change the water percentage or adjust other liquid components like glycerin or other humectants until it is lighter at this point of your production.  Experimentation is crucial!

[David08848]

Mark,  Shaving Cream made to emulate the British Shaving creams can be difficult to scent.  I have found that if the cream has the right consistency and is not too firm that the scents are easier to smell.  My new formulation is lighter and as a result the scents are more easily perceived.  Choosing scents that don’t cause any allergic reactions is essential and choosing scents that are strong and long lasting is important!  You don’t necessarily have to go to 4% but if you’ve chosen the right scent 2-3% should be fine.  Finding scents that represent the different “perfume” categories might be a good path to follow.  Here is a link to a great site for fragrance categories:

http://theperfumedcourt.com/fragrance_families.aspx?onatalp=417703967

Just be aware that the shaving market is quite a particular market so make sure your product is as perfect as possible before you release it into the market.  They are a very tough crowd!  Good Luck!

[David08848]

tanelise, such a very kind offer!  I’m still not sure what direction I would like to take with this project and I appreciate the offer but I’ll pass.  As you said there is quite a market for all types for Men’s and Men’s Shaving Products now whether it be an old style product or something new and unusual so that makes it even more difficult to decide what is the best avenue to follow.  Do I want to use a product as inspiration or do I want to try something new.  I’ll still keep looking around and see what I can find and I’m always open to suggestions!  Thanks again for your support and kindness!
David

[David08848]

tanelise - thanks for the suggestion!  I just found it a few days ago and had saved the info on it!  I didn’t realize that it is for “pre-shave” “shaving” and “post shave”  but it does have appeal…

Perry - I was aware that BTMS and BTMS-50 are typically used for hair conditioners but have also found some formulas using it for pre-shave.  I am assuming it would “soften” the beard hair and make it easier to shave.

Belassi - is there a reason why those two might not play well together?  I have limited knowledge of Anionic, Non-ionic, Cationic and Amphoteric but work with Anionic all the time.

Doreen - You’re right that this is a big and popular market right now and that these kinds of products are very desired right now.  I just want to add that there are lots of newer products like the one tanelise mentioned but there are also “old” products like the shaving cream that was created in the 1920’s and 1930’s that I make and are still being made all over the world!

[David08848]

Yes, you can substitute the Babassu or Coconut Oil in the 4.5 to 5% range  for the Coconut Fatty Acids (4.8% in this formula).  You really only need to lower the Myristic Acid 1% or 2% to get into the range in this formula.  The biggest change will be the Stearic Acid which is about a third of what it should be.  That is a major reason your results are clear and not white!

[David08848]

Here is a formula that was posted here by a gentleman named “pepe”.  The numbers are pretty good:

Here is the Formula from my notes;

Water                                           48.100%

Pristerene 4908-stearic acid         21.300%

Emery 655 myristic acid               10.400%

Emery 622 coconut fatty acids      4.800%

Glycerine                                      6.200%                                             

Unichem SOHYD                            0.600%                                             

Unichem POHYD                            6.800%                                                              

TEA                                              1.500%

Propylparaben                               0.200%
                                

Methylparaben                              0.100%

[David08848]

Your Stearic Acid content it not high enough.  Your Babassu (similar to Coconut Oil and used for lather) is too high and so is your Myristic Acid.  Basically, your ingredients aren’t too bad but the amounts aren’t in the right ranges for each.

[David08848]

Well, it seems from looking through numerous product ingredients lists, that I should list the fragrance ingredients by percentage in with the other ingredients!  I just have to break down the blends I have created into a percentage chart for each fragrance formula to determine the actual amounts in the formula then add it to the ingredients list mixed in with the other ingredients which are by percentage down to the required 1%.  This is pretty much what I have been doing all along…

By the way, I write my own fragrance formulas made with basic scents in fragrance oils and specific essential oils.  I currently have 6,654 formulas I have written to choose from when I am creating a new product or scent…

[David08848]

Thanks, Guys!  That was helpful!  I’m sure it still works that way and it makes sense for larger companies to do that.  I think the difference now is that since the late 90’s and the Internet and the amount of small companies that has emerged during that time that fragrance companies are going after businesses of all sizes from large companies to handcrafters.  The handcrafters/small companies wouldn’t know that they could work with the fragrance companies in the way Perry mentioned nor could they afford it though!  Also back then I don’t think that there would be as many “middle-men” or resellers of fragrance as their is now because this market has changed.

Being a soapmaker since the late 90’s I have had lots of experience fragrancing soaps and although there may be minor to vast differences in fragrance strength from one fragrance to another, the general percentage level that works because of the process involved is about 3-4%!  Since my shaving cream is a soap-based product I am concerned about using a fragrance level that is in that range but that seems to be what the customers want and the amount that works for a fatty acid/NaOH, KOH or TEA based product which is why I am asking about these kind of levels for this kind of product!  What Bob is describing is understandable but does limit the craft person or small company as far as available fragrances to use in what is now a very fussy market.  I can certainly see why he mentions using 4%-6% in a soap based product but me concern is in going that high!

This has helped me to realize what is common practice in the cosmetic chemistry field in the fragrance arena but now I need to work out what to do with more cosmetic products like the shaving cream that are soap-based so that everyone is happy with the results and each product is safe to use!

[David08848]

Sounds interesting…

I realized that I didn’t express my thoughts well in my last statement:

I am curious about any ones observations on using a 3-4% fragrance level in a soap-based cosmetic product used for shaving!  I know that there must be some caution used with certain essential oils and some fragrance chemicals as well but a product with sodium and potassium stearate seems pretty difficult to scent!  Maybe someone has an observation about that as well?

[David08848]

Thank you, everyone for their replies!

Yes, DAS, that was what I was saying but I’ve got another trick that they seem to do as well!  I have samples I got from one reseller and 1 lb. and higher containers I purchased from them and the original samples smell stronger than the purchased ones!  I think that having scents that you have worked with duplicated to get lower prices and larger quantities is an option that should work for me.  25 lbs. of a duped fragrance (no longer available) came in the other day and actually smelled better than their approval sample and totally like the original!  I’ve got so many fragrances that are no longer available, I should start a business with old duped scents! 

Belassi,  Those were helpful observations.  One of my newer sources has three different fragrance options for different purposes and one is a “higher end” fragrance with more tops notes and other subtle differences…  Your levels are pretty much what I have been observing so that is helpful but it did make me rethink my shaving cream and shaving soap levels in this way.  I have received several responses about the scent level and since they are both “soap-based” products I might consider a slightly higher level in some circumstances.  I want customers to be happy with the scent level but I don’t want to overscent something because of someones ability to smell or lack thereof!  DAS, I like your point about asking the manufacturer to make it the way you want it!  Belassi, you’re certainly right in my experience with customers preferences!  With many, Fragrance comes first!  And Bill, I know we all have probably experienced a difference in strength in many fragrances and also experienced the frustration in achieving a scent that is “just right” for everyone!

I am curious about any ones observations on using fragrance in a soap-based cosmetic product even one used for shaving!

Thanks, everyone!  

[David08848]

You’re saying that fragrance manufacturing companies sell diluted versions of their scents to unsuspecting customers?

[David08848]

Clive, are you trying to make a solid bar or puck of shaving soap or are you trying to make a shaving cream?  If it is a soap then why are you just using KOH and not a combination of KOH (or TEA) and NaOH?

[David08848]

So, as an update, I tested the product for two weeks, got great shaves with it!  I also passed along a sample to an in-store customer who got back to me with an incredible review of the product with favorable comparisons with other products including one product with one of the new ingredients I am using which was quite interesting since he didn’t have my ingredients list to compare with this product!  He tested it eight times, on alternate days he used other products as a comparison with mine and came back with a very well organized and well planned review of the shaving cream.  He was very methodical and as a result gave me solid information I can trust from someone who is quite familiar with numerous products from the shaving market, types of shaving equipment, shaving techniques and he offered valuable opinions and observations based on these.

As a result of this and of my own testing and observations, today I started production and was able to make 4 production size batches!  All went well!

[David08848]

I had a long talk with a cosmetic chemist friend, Kevin and we both agreed that since the formulation I am trying to create has no examples of it available in books and online, that I should work with a vanishing cream formula using “Trychemistry” and try adding the ingredients I want and see what I come up with!  It makes sense since a vanishing cream formula can be a soap-based O/W emulsion with TEA stearate as the main ingredient in the oil phase, TEA, NaOH and KOH are often used and also often Cetyl Alcohol is included as part of the system as well as many of the other ingredients I wish to include anyway!  I’ll give it a try and see what I come up with!

[David08848]

I have considered doing a mentholated version as well as one without menthol.

[David08848]

It’s the nature of the beast and has been for decades yet customers are still attracted to the product and still use it!  As in any formula, there are good aspects and some bad and it is up to the customer to decide which outweighs the other and whether it is worth them using it!  This is why I am seeking to create a formula with Triethanolamine and one of the more stable hydroxides, Stearic Acid and two high linoleic acid oils and a fatty alcohol as well as I feel that this is the right route to go!

My research over the last week indicates that this type of cleansing cream is still very popular with women and men alike and men can take advantage of some of its characteristics to assist in the shaving regimen and do!  I was amazed after going to quite a few shaving boards how many hundreds of posts from those who use it on a daily basis, hence my interest in pursuing a similar type of product!  However, finding formulations for a soap-based cleansing cream has been extremely difficult!  W/O cold cream formulas are a dime a dozen as are O/W vanishing creams but O/W cleansing cream formulations are few and far between!  So, I’ll keep plugging away at it until I find the info I need, a formula I can use as a base for this product and ideas I can come up with to modify it and make it my own!

[David08848]

Clive, I found this article by the famous Ken Klein from Cosmetics & Toiletries which addressed the Noxzema Issue!

“Cosmetic chemists have at their disposal a seemingly endless
supply of emulsifiers from which to choose. By far, the most popular
category of emulsifiers is “soap” – the reaction product between a fatty
acid typically stearic acid) and an alkali earth metal (typically
sodium hydroxide, occasionally potassium hydroxide).

Sometimes
either an amine (such as triethanolamine) or ammonium hydroxide is used, though
ammonium hydroxide is used less often due to its odor and volatility. This
volatility was actually used to an advantage years ago by the Noxell Company
when the ammonium hydroxide was used to neutralize stearic acid to form the O/W
emulsifier.

Over
time, the ammonia volatilized off to leave an excess of free stearic acid. This
stearic acid crystallized to solidify the emulsion. The result was the “crunch”
when you stuck your finger into the Noxzema cream. Additionally, the excess
stearic acid gave a pearlescent appearance, creating great marketing potential.
The product as sold was quite stable, however when the cream was stirred, an
unstable lotion was formed.

The
lotion was unstable because there was no significant concentration of
emulsifier (ammonium stearate) remaining. Emulsions that are formed by using
sodium or potassium stearate tend to have a high pH (7.5-8.5) and have a
tendency to build in viscosity over time. This is probably due to the formation
of a gel network of liquid crystalline nature in the external phase. The reader
should keep in mind that monovalent soaps form O/W emulsions while polyvalent
soaps form W/O emulsions. Remember Bancroft’s Rule: the phase where the
emulsifier is most soluble will become the external phase.

Soap
emulsifiers have many positive attributes:

• They are quite powerful (efficient).

• They are cost-effective (inexpensive).

• They are reliable. (They will emulsify almost any oil.)

• They are temperature insensitive.

They also have a few signifi cant negatives:

• They must be used at a high pH (or else you don’t have much soap).

• They form emulsions that gel over time.

• They are incompatible with many (cationic) conditioning agents.

• They can dramatically increase the TEWL (Trans Epidermal Water Loss) by mobilizing the interstitial skin lipids.

• They can cause eye sting.

• They can cause skin irritation.

Nonionic emulsifiers (particularly the ethoxylates) address many of these negatives but have a few negatives of their own:

• They are very temperature sensitive. (Remember the PIT or Phase Inversion Temperature issue.)

• They associate with paraben preservatives (through
hydrogen bonding between the para-hydroxyl group of the paraben molecule
and the pendant oxygen from the ethylene oxide), increasing the
likelihood for microbial attack.

• They work better for lotions than creams.

• They tend to be a bit inefficient.

• They can be a bit expensive.”

[David08848]

Ammonium Hydroxide is the base that is used for this formulation but I don’t know how strong a base it is compared to the others available like KOH and NaOH but I do know it is not always as stable.
 
Also, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Bicarbonate are three alkalies that must contribute in some way.  I’ve seen these being used to create a W/O cold cream type of formulation. 

I am seeking to make a O/W emulsifed as I mentioned above “I am seeking an O/W emulsion that has an  Anionic based emulsifier of
TEA Stearate with an oil-soluble auxiliary of Cetyl Alcohol making it an
O/W emulsion with mixed emulsifier.”

Interestingly they now use Potassium Chloride is hygroscopic and Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) 9 is also hygroscopic and must aid in the formulation.

Thanks, Clive!