Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Pre-Shave Product Suggestions

  • Pre-Shave Product Suggestions

    Posted by david08848 on October 20, 2017 at 7:34 pm

    I would like to create a “Pre-Shave” product to add to my line and am hoping for suggestions for ideas and ingredients!  I have seen many “shaving oils” which lubricate the skin but have not gotten very positive feedback from the shaving community for this type of product!  I am thinking of something that will act as a “conditioner” for the skin as well as the facial hair that would work well with the shaving cream formula I have created (with your generous help) that is “soap-based” so that these two will work better together.  If you have any ideas of suggestions I would be delighted to hear them!

    david08848 replied 1 month, 2 weeks ago 8 Members · 37 Replies
  • 37 Replies
  • belassi

    Member
    October 20, 2017 at 7:55 pm

    Do we have time for this, these days? It would have been a great idea in the 19th century, though.

  • bobzchemist

    Member
    October 20, 2017 at 9:17 pm

    How about a basic toner formula with some water-soluble silicone added?

  • david08848

    Member
    October 20, 2017 at 10:48 pm

    Belassi, We have hundreds of thousands of men who are quite interested in pre-shaving, shaving and post shaving products.  It is not a small market and many companies large and small are doing their best to fulfill their needs.

    Bobzchemist - I am thinking about an after-shave toner type of product in the near future but for now I seek something to apply to the face before shaving that moisturizes the skin and the beard hairs.  In looking online in the last few minutes I am seeing mention of things like glycerin, shea butter and I am thinking of ingredients that are “soap-friendly” but create a nice emulsion and provide beard softening, provide a more slick surface on the face and assist the shaving cream in reducing nicks, cuts and razor burn.

  • markbroussard

    Member
    October 21, 2017 at 10:45 am

    The attributes would be a product that helps open up the hair follicles and softens the whiskers.  I’ve tried shaving oils as a pre-shave and … no real benefit imho.  Now, after-shave oils and toners … lots of options there.

    Pre-shave:  I seriously doubt that you’ll come up with anything that can beat a steaming hot towel and washing your face right before shaving.

  • david08848

    Member
    October 21, 2017 at 1:25 pm

    I guess this means I’m going to have to work a little bit harder!  I used to it!

    Perhaps a “Pre-Wash” to “open up the hair follicles and softens the whiskers” is what I should be going for!  Ingredients like “Incroquat BTMS or cetrimonium bromide”?  Another use for “Octyldodecanol”, or Cetyl Alcohol?  Cetyl Esters?

    I’m sitting here feeling how rough and dry my face whiskers feel and thinking how nice it would be to soften these whiskers before I test out my newest and hopefully “approved” version of my shaving creama and a “Pre-Wash” has some appeal to me…

    Thanks for your input.  This is helping me to hone in on what I could possibly do and giving me some realistic insight on what is best to avoid!  Some positive suggestions about moving in this direction?

  • david08848

    Member
    October 22, 2017 at 1:53 pm

    I’m now taking a look at “cleansing creams” as I have found quite a few references about their use on the shaving message boards.  I want to find a formula without mineral oil, petrolatum and the like but I do have an “unpetroleum jelly” by Strahl & Pitsch I could use. 

    If you know of any formula that fill the bill, please feel free to share!  Thanks!

  • david08848

    Member
    October 23, 2017 at 7:36 pm

    Apparently, Noxema Cleansing Cream is quite popular in the shaving community so I think I’m going to check out that option and continue to look for formulations start with… anyone have any suggested formulas to share?

  • david08848

    Member
    October 24, 2017 at 12:52 pm

    Seems Noxema has been reformulated several times over the years!  I found several ingredients lists including this one from 2004 which seems doable with the ingredients I have available:

    INGREDIENTS/CHEMICAL NAME  : 
    WATER, STEARIC ACID, GLYCINE SOJA (SOYBEAN) OIL, FRAGRANCE, PROPYLENE
    GLYCOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, LINUM USITATISSIMUM (LINSEED) SEED OIL, TRIETHANOLAMINE,
    TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, CARBOMER, SODIUM HYDROXIDE, CAMPHOR, MENTHOL, EUCALYPTUS
    GLOBULUS LEAF OIL. 2004

    I have to check out the fatty acid structure of Soybean Oil and Linseed Oil and see what I can substitute.  Soy has a distinct odor I don’t like and Linseed Oil makes me think of wood floors…

    Carbomer is available from online resellers in at least 2 versions…

    If anyone has any suggested amounts for these ingredients, I would appreciate it!  Thanks!

    (P.S. - I looked through all of the Flick books I have and quite and few others and only found one possible formula. It does contain IMWITOR 960 - which I believe is Glyceryl Stearate SE ????)

  • david08848

    Member
    October 26, 2017 at 2:45 am

    So, I had time to check out the fatty acid content of Soybean and Linseed oils and I found that they are both high is linoleic acid! I checked out other oils and find I have a few options like Evening Primrose and Safflower oil and apparently Sunflower oil can have high linoleic acid as well!
     
    I’m still searching for a model formula with TEA and NaOH with Stearic Acid just to get a hand with percentages but if I don’t find a cleansing/cold cream formula I’ll just have to start guessing!

  • david08848

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 12:23 am

    So, lets turn this into a game!  Where do you think the 1% begins in this formula list?  😮

    INGREDIENTS/CHEMICAL NAME  : 
    WATER, STEARIC ACID, GLYCINE SOJA (SOYBEAN) OIL, FRAGRANCE, PROPYLENE
    GLYCOL, CETYL ALCOHOL, LINUM USITATISSIMUM (LINSEED) SEED OIL, TRIETHANOLAMINE,
    TOCOPHERYL ACETATE, CARBOMER, SODIUM HYDROXIDE, CAMPHOR, MENTHOL, EUCALYPTUS
    GLOBULUS LEAF OIL. 2004

  • belassi

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 5:06 am

    List in the correct order is not put the.

  • david08848

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 12:58 pm

    Clive,  This list is from a MSDS sheet from Procter & Gamble from 2004.  I am assuming it is in the correct order being that it is on an MSDS sheet from the company.

    If I understand this correctly, I am seeking an O/W emulsion that has an  Anionic based emulsifier of TEA Stearate with an oil-soluble auxiliary of Cetyl Alcohol making it an O/W emulsion with mixed emulsifier.  This is a cleansing cream, not a Vanishing cream or a W/O emulsion Cold Cream.  I’ve spent days researching this and have found quite a bit of information on Vanishing Creams and Cold Creams but little on Cleansing Creams based on an O/W emulsification system with TEA Stearate and Cetyl Alcohol.

    This may be too basic for some here but I’ll keep plugging away until I get it right!  I wish I had the background that some of you have but I don’t, so I have to ask for assistance.  When I get it, it is greatly appreciated!

  • belassi

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 4:07 pm

    Look at where “fragrance” is. That’s why I say it is ordered incorrectly.

  • david08848

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 4:25 pm

    I did notice that but didn’t know if somehow the other ingredients next to it were in the 1% range.  If you took out “Fragrance” would the rest of the ingredients seem to be in order?

  • david08848

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 5:06 pm

    …also here are a couple of other ingredients lists for somewhat current Noxzema creams of the same variety, one just cleansing and the other moisurizing:

    Noxzema
    Classic Clean Original Deep Cleansing Cream

    Water, Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja
    (Soybean) Oil, Fragrance, Eucalyptus Globulus (Eucalyptus) Leaf Oil, Propylene
    Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Gelatin, Ammonium Hydroxide, DMDM Hydantoin, Calcium
    Stearate, Disodium EDTA, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium
    Sulfate, Calcium Bicarbonate, Potassium Chloride

    Noxzema
    Classic Clean Moisturizing Cleansing Cream

    Water, Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja
    (Soybean) Oil, Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, Fragrance, Gelatin, Phenoxyethanol,
    Ammonium Hydroxide, Methylparaben, Camphor, Menthol, DMDM Hydantoin,
    Propylparaben, Calcium Hydroxide, Eucalyptus Globulus Leaf Oil, Disodium EDTA,
    Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Potassium Chloride

    Fragrance is pretty high up on the list of both of them.

    Keep in mind, I am not trying to make an exact duplication but rather use the original list I posted as a model and make whatever additions and modifications I can to improve a basic product using TEA Stearate and Cetyl Alcohol as was listed in that MSDS sheet.

  • belassi

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 8:32 pm

    If you took out “Fragrance” would the rest of the ingredients seem to be in order?
    Not in my opinion. That’s why I said what I said. Note also, where is the preservative, eh?

  • belassi

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 8:40 pm

    Noxzema Classic Clean Original Deep Cleansing Cream
    Water, Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Fragrance, Eucalyptus Globulus (Eucalyptus) Leaf Oil, Propylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Gelatin, Ammonium Hydroxide, DMDM Hydantoin, Calcium Stearate, Disodium EDTA, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Calcium Bicarbonate, Potassium Chloride

    This makes little or no sense to me. The Stearic Acid, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil are the three components following water, so we have to assume this is an emulsion or a soap. Well, if it’s an emulsion, where are the emulsifiers? (Can’t be the calcium stearate if the list is in order because everything after fragrance will be <1%)
    So if it’s not an emulsion then a soap? If so where are the strong bases to saponify?

  • david08848

    Member
    October 28, 2017 at 11:07 pm

    Ammonium Hydroxide is the base that is used for this formulation but I don’t know how strong a base it is compared to the others available like KOH and NaOH but I do know it is not always as stable.
     
    Also, Sodium Bicarbonate, Calcium Chloride and Calcium Bicarbonate are three alkalies that must contribute in some way.  I’ve seen these being used to create a W/O cold cream type of formulation. 

    I am seeking to make a O/W emulsifed as I mentioned above “I am seeking an O/W emulsion that has an  Anionic based emulsifier of
    TEA Stearate with an oil-soluble auxiliary of Cetyl Alcohol making it an
    O/W emulsion with mixed emulsifier.”

    Interestingly they now use Potassium Chloride is hygroscopic and Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) 9 is also hygroscopic and must aid in the formulation.

    Thanks, Clive!

  • belassi

    Member
    October 29, 2017 at 12:08 am

    My problem with that, is that the phenoxy is a preservative and at 1% or less, and the ammonia is listed AFTER that. It is inconceivable to me that such small amounts can produce a complete soap. I can only think that the amount of soap produced is sufficient to act as an emulsifier for the major part of the oil phase. If so, I suspect this might be quite a tricky formula to emulate reliably and even trickier to scale up.

  • david08848

    Member
    October 29, 2017 at 1:25 pm

    Clive, I found this article by the famous Ken Klein from Cosmetics & Toiletries which addressed the Noxzema Issue!

    “Cosmetic chemists have at their disposal a seemingly endless
    supply of emulsifiers from which to choose. By far, the most popular
    category of emulsifiers is “soap” – the reaction product between a fatty
    acid typically stearic acid) and an alkali earth metal (typically
    sodium hydroxide, occasionally potassium hydroxide).

    Sometimes
    either an amine (such as triethanolamine) or ammonium hydroxide is used, though
    ammonium hydroxide is used less often due to its odor and volatility. This
    volatility was actually used to an advantage years ago by the Noxell Company
    when the ammonium hydroxide was used to neutralize stearic acid to form the O/W
    emulsifier.

    Over
    time, the ammonia volatilized off to leave an excess of free stearic acid. This
    stearic acid crystallized to solidify the emulsion. The result was the “crunch”
    when you stuck your finger into the Noxzema cream. Additionally, the excess
    stearic acid gave a pearlescent appearance, creating great marketing potential.
    The product as sold was quite stable, however when the cream was stirred, an
    unstable lotion was formed.

    The
    lotion was unstable because there was no significant concentration of
    emulsifier (ammonium stearate) remaining. Emulsions that are formed by using
    sodium or potassium stearate tend to have a high pH (7.5-8.5) and have a
    tendency to build in viscosity over time. This is probably due to the formation
    of a gel network of liquid crystalline nature in the external phase. The reader
    should keep in mind that monovalent soaps form O/W emulsions while polyvalent
    soaps form W/O emulsions. Remember Bancroft’s Rule: the phase where the
    emulsifier is most soluble will become the external phase.

    Soap
    emulsifiers have many positive attributes:

    • They are quite powerful (efficient).

    • They are cost-effective (inexpensive).

    • They are reliable. (They will emulsify almost any oil.)

    • They are temperature insensitive.

    They also have a few signifi cant negatives:

    • They must be used at a high pH (or else you don’t have much soap).

    • They form emulsions that gel over time.

    • They are incompatible with many (cationic) conditioning agents.

    • They can dramatically increase the TEWL (Trans Epidermal Water Loss) by mobilizing the interstitial skin lipids.

    • They can cause eye sting.

    • They can cause skin irritation.

    Nonionic emulsifiers (particularly the ethoxylates) address many of these negatives but have a few negatives of their own:

    • They are very temperature sensitive. (Remember the PIT or Phase Inversion Temperature issue.)

    • They associate with paraben preservatives (through
    hydrogen bonding between the para-hydroxyl group of the paraben molecule
    and the pendant oxygen from the ethylene oxide), increasing the
    likelihood for microbial attack.

    • They work better for lotions than creams.

    • They tend to be a bit inefficient.

    • They can be a bit expensive.”

  • belassi

    Member
    October 30, 2017 at 12:31 am

    Over time, the ammonia volatilized off to leave an excess of free stearic acid. This stearic acid crystallized to solidify the emulsion. The result was the “crunch” when you stuck your finger into the Noxzema cream.
    Honestly, I would regard it as a failure if I designed something like that. 

  • david08848

    Member
    October 30, 2017 at 1:38 am

    It’s the nature of the beast and has been for decades yet customers are still attracted to the product and still use it!  As in any formula, there are good aspects and some bad and it is up to the customer to decide which outweighs the other and whether it is worth them using it!  This is why I am seeking to create a formula with Triethanolamine and one of the more stable hydroxides, Stearic Acid and two high linoleic acid oils and a fatty alcohol as well as I feel that this is the right route to go!

    My research over the last week indicates that this type of cleansing cream is still very popular with women and men alike and men can take advantage of some of its characteristics to assist in the shaving regimen and do!  I was amazed after going to quite a few shaving boards how many hundreds of posts from those who use it on a daily basis, hence my interest in pursuing a similar type of product!  However, finding formulations for a soap-based cleansing cream has been extremely difficult!  W/O cold cream formulas are a dime a dozen as are O/W vanishing creams but O/W cleansing cream formulations are few and far between!  So, I’ll keep plugging away at it until I find the info I need, a formula I can use as a base for this product and ideas I can come up with to modify it and make it my own!

  • das

    Member
    October 30, 2017 at 6:35 pm

    Any thoughts about using stuff like l-arginine or menthol?. Maybe for marketing purposes, since intimate products made people comfortable using them and the effects are well known you could take advantage.

  • david08848

    Member
    October 30, 2017 at 7:17 pm

    I have considered doing a mentholated version as well as one without menthol.

  • david08848

    Member
    November 2, 2017 at 2:32 pm

    I had a long talk with a cosmetic chemist friend, Kevin and we both agreed that since the formulation I am trying to create has no examples of it available in books and online, that I should work with a vanishing cream formula using “Trychemistry” and try adding the ingredients I want and see what I come up with!  It makes sense since a vanishing cream formula can be a soap-based O/W emulsion with TEA stearate as the main ingredient in the oil phase, TEA, NaOH and KOH are often used and also often Cetyl Alcohol is included as part of the system as well as many of the other ingredients I wish to include anyway!  I’ll give it a try and see what I come up with!

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