[DaveStone]

Stanley said:

I am going to be blunt and honest….
Your wife needs to see a BEAUTICIAN for an analysis for her hair type and what could be done.   

At this point, either salon that caters to Black or White patrons would be a place to start.  From everything you have stated you are not having luck please see a professional that does hair before your wife goes bald. Double processing hair with different chemicals will only damage the hair.  Yes there are the DIY Caucasian Folks on youtube explaining how easy it is to use a Organic Root Stimulator (ORS) relaxer but there is a technique to its application.  Their product are meant for a population of people that burn easily or the texture of hair is easy to chemically straighten.  Ladies in my family would not use ORS because of this. Application is taught in cosmetology school.  Your application could be suspect the length of time could be suspect-sometimes the stylist will “massage” the hair to make sure it is straightening.  These “tribal knowledge” bits that stylist do.

As chemists- yes we can explain the science but a beautician actually sees every day people will kinds of hair and issues.  Stop doing this DIY fix  and see a hair professional.

I don’t think she would go bald as we tried it on different strands of untreated hair, and the stuff never touched the scalp. I also don’t see how application is the issue, because I’ve seen stylists do the exact same things we did…massaging/smoothing etc. In fact, we watched a video where someone had a relaxer done at a salon.

I honestly believe ORS is ineffective on Caucasian hair. There are no products on the market aimed to straighten a white person’s curly hair. Although there are famous examples where typical relaxers did work…like with Micky Dolenz on the first season of The Monkees tv show. Haha.

Of course the Japanese straightening thing would work. It’s just an exorbitant procedure. Funny this is, Japanese straightening solutions appear to be no different than a perm solution, except that the former’s a cream and the latter is watery.

[DaveStone]

Just found a very informative article: https://www.ijtrichology.com/article.asp?issn=0974-7753;year=2015;volume=7;issue=1;spage=2;epage=15;aulast=Gavazzoni

[DaveStone]

So I’ve tried two relaxer types on my wife’s hair. No-lye and lye. We have tried each two times (on different sections of hair), once following the directions and the other purposely disregarding the guidelines (i.e. shampooing before use and nearly doubling the processing duration). Both times with both products failed to see any results. She also tried using a perm solution aka thioglycolate while I pulled her hair as straight as I could. No go.

I can’t understand it. Does a white person’s hair have a different chemical structure or something? I would think afro hair would be more resistant than my wife’s.

Does anybody here know what a person is called who studies hair? Like the type of scientist who devised these products. I need someone who may be able to answer these questions. It’s really bewildering.

@chemicalmatt Maybe you could shed some light on this…

[DaveStone]

Stanley said:

I assume my next question would be why is she choosing to use this product that is mainly used on 4b-4c (4z) curl pattern?  There are other products that might be better suited for her hair pattern which would yield the desired look.

She is using the relaxer because she figures if it can straighten hair curlier than hers, why wouldn’t it work on her.  What other products would be better suited to her hair type? As far as I know, relaxers are the only product that straightens hair.

[DaveStone]

Stanley said:

ORS — I am assuming stands for the brand of relaxer-Organic Root Stimultor.  This is a brand.  Back in the old days you had Revlon relaxers as well as Optimum and TCB relaxers.  Relaxers are normally used by those that have 4B-4C as experienced in the African American community.  I am not saying other ethnic groups or hair patterns could not used the product.- please correct me if I have made too many assumptions….  

The directions are more for the scalp than it is for the hair.  Using a relaxer is a harsh chemical treatment that can produce sores on the scalp and seriously damage the hair.  Your hair and scalp produce natural oils that help protect the skin and hair from the harmful chemicals of a relaxer. If you wash your hair too soon before a relaxer it opens the pores of the scalp and removes the natural protective oils, which can lead to burning your scalp and hair. Actually you shouldn’t wash your hair less than 3-4 days before a treatment.

That’s the correct brand. My wife is white but has natural curly, frizzy hair. She has tried no-lye relaxers to no avail.

Can relaxer still penetrate hair if it’s coated in silicone from the conditioner the last time it was washed?

[DaveStone]

Perry said:

This is not new technology. The paper was published in 2012. So, you have to ask yourself, why would a brilliant technology that has been known about for more than a decade not have taken off?

Why would an excellent anti-aging compound languish in obscurity for years? Why wouldn’t the big guys (P&G, Unilever, L’Oreal, Estee Lauder, etc) launch products that feature this great working ingredient?

I think the answer is pretty simple…the ingredient doesn’t do much that is noticeable to consumers.

A reasonable heuristic is, if a big company isn’t using an ingredient, the ingredient probably doesn’t provide noticeable benefits.

Of course, the opposite is NOT true. Just because a big company includes an ingredient doesn’t mean that it actually does anything.

Good points. Although I would think a big company might not use an ingredient simply to cut costs.

[DaveStone]

Pharma said:

It’s nearly as alkaline as sodium hydroxide.

Calcium hydroxide is slightly less alkaline (still medium-strong though) but foremost it’s very poorly water soluble and henceforth doesn’t act as a strong base under certain conditions.

Which would work better as a relaxer? I’ve rarely seen lithium used…whereas calcium and lye are most common. I wonder why.

[DaveStone]

Perry said:

The phrase “sensitive skin” is a useful marketing invention that convinces otherwise normal people that they need a special, more expensive product than just the regular moisturizer that everyone else uses. Everyone wants to feel special and telling them they have skin that is different than other people’s is a good way to do that. Whether skin is sensitive of not is more psychological than physically measurable. 

I thought “sensitive skin” meant skin that is prone to redness, irritation, breakouts, etc. Isn’t that why those type of products are formulated without fragrance, harsher surfactants, and so forth?

[DaveStone]

@Abdullah

When you apply this citric acid solution to your face, do you wash it off after a certain time, or does it self-neutralize when your skin returns to its original PH after an hour or so? Wouldn’t it technically be an AHA then?

[DaveStone]

zetein said:

You need exfoliation. Exfoliation is King.

I never understood why soap/surfactants can’t do this. Aren’t they supposed to remove dirt, oil, and dead skin cells?

[DaveStone]

Graillotion said:

Paprik said:

Niacinamide handles lower pH. (3.5 - 7.5)

Correct….that was just repeating mommy blogger lore (sometime mommy bloggers go to the next level…and become…..repackers…hehehe) ….no (applicable) science.  Mine all goes in at 4.8 pH.  And the word ‘stable’ was misused.  

(That lore came from an old study….high heat….1000 days….and a strong acid.  It is what happens when they read scientific papers…and don’t understand them…..and then they just all repeat what the ignorant one said.)

But how could you tell if the niacinimide degraded or not? I was more concerned with the urea anyhow.

[DaveStone]

Abdullah said:

suswang8 said:

@Abdullah, where is the evidence to support using low pH products for that?

Currently my own experience. 

make a low pH solution without adding any other ingredients. Only water and lactic acid or citric acid or vinegar or whatever way that you can reduce the pH and use it on your face and see how much oil will your face produce.

High pH for dry skin. Just increase the pH of water with sodium hydroxide or soda or anything else and it will make your skin dry as hell.

That is why i make my products at low pH. The ingredients may or may not benefit the dry skin but it will definitely stimulate your skin to produce more oil. 

It’s hard to do that as some of the ingredients I incorporate are more stable around PH 6 (niacinimide, urea).

[DaveStone]

I’m using citric acid + sodium citrate to buffer urea. I added too much citric acid the PH went down to 5-5.5. So then I added the citrate to get it up to 6. I don’t know if that’s the way to do it. I’ve never come across documentation explaining how to use a buffer, that is, how much of each to add.

[DaveStone]

@Pharma What’s your take on this? You seem to be very knowledgeable of urea.

[DaveStone]

vitalys said:

It is very difficult (almost impossible) to tell how much you need to employ in your system - it all depends (water, urea purity, etc). You need to choose the buffing system, which would be able to maintain the pH at the particular level for a long period of time. Urea is most stable at pH 6-6.2, so you need to adjust the pH of your solution manually by adding components of the buffer literally drop by drop and then you will find out the % for your system precisely. 
Another option is use esters of such acids as Citric, Lactic, etc. - Triethyl Citrate, Triacetin, Ethyl Lactate. They also effectively prevent the pH drift of urea solutions. 

If using a buffer of citric acid and sodium citrate, what is the typical ratio?

Would you just add the two ingredients until the desired PH is achieved? Or should they be premixed and then added?

[DaveStone]

Would adding a little citric acid (to lower PH) affect the urea?

[DaveStone]

vitalys said:

The buffer is necessary if you want to extend Urea stability in the water solution. 

In the example formulation I provided, would 2% sodium lactate be enough?

[DaveStone]

vitalys said:

I don’t see any obstacles with this combination if you utilize the mixture within a week. 

Would you still need to include sodium lactate as a buffer? Is that always necessary?

[DaveStone]

vitalys said:

@DaveStone 10% Urea is too much here. Usually, 10% Urea is used for “thick” skin type (palms and soles). Of course, it depends on the purpose of your formulation, but I would employ 3-5% of Urea. 
The concentration of Salicylic acid also depends on the purpose of the formulation. Usually 0,5 - 2%. The higher concentrations bring your product into OTC category (For example, the preparations against acne) 

How fast does it take Urea to degrade?

Say you made a solution of water, 5% urea, 3% niacinimide, and Germall Plus. Would it be okay if used within 1-2 weeks?

[DaveStone]

vitalys said:

Urea and hydroxy acids affect the protein structures differently. Acids coagulates the proteins, so the process of exfoliation is slower (If you use the recommended % of an acid or an acid mixture). 
You don’t need to use 40% Urea solution to exfoliate the callused skin. 25-30% will suffice to remove it quickly and safely. 
Another option is 3.5-5% KOH solutions, which are also known as ” cuticle and callus removers” , manufactured in a form of gels and used in the salon industry and by foot care specialists. If you use the KOH as exfoliating remedy, it is highly recommended to apply efficient moisturizer to recover the skin barriers, because alkaline preparations destroy the skin proteins as well as the skin lipids (cell membranes, etc). 

If you used 10% urea on your face…what percentage of salicylic acid would have the same effect? 

[DaveStone]

chemicalmatt said:

Not so sure about humectancy and those two, since urea is generally used as a keratolytic. Place a 40% urea solution on your nail plate and overnight the nail will have dissolved and you’ll be ready for toe surgery.  Reason for using sodium lactate-lactic acid with high urea content is that is the best buffering system to stabilize urea at pH 5.0 - 5.5. Urea decomposes (reduces) into ammonia in aqueous solution - just ask any farmer who uses it for fertilizer.

Urea can dissolve healthy nail too? Or just fungal-infected nail?

Isn’t sodium lactate keratolytic as well over 10%?

[DaveStone]

Graillotion said:

They work in different ways.

Why choose.

I use them both in the same product.

How do they work differently? Which is molecularly smaller?

[DaveStone]

Pattsi said:

@DaveStone - to your question, in theory it could be yes but every cut leaves a scar/microscar, it’s there even if you can’t see it. So It’s the choice between scar or wrinkle.

Oh that’s interesting…I had not known that. Do you mean a deep cut? or even something like a papercut?

[DaveStone]

Wow, that’s surprising. Unfortunately it is not available in any Walgreens, Rite Aid, or CVS near me. Shipping isn’t offered either. As for Suave, also not in stores…shipping is available with come products. There isn’t a Walmart within 25 miles from my location. I’ll have to check Dollar Tree.

[DaveStone]

They’re all around the same price. Most are higher.

Don’t answer a question with a question.