[Camel]

Hello,

I’m not a professional, but I can try to offer you some advice.

Regarding stability, you will definitely want to introduce a chelating agent to your formula, something like Disodium EDTA or Sodium Phytate. They are relatively inexpensive and only require a small amount (about 0.1-0.2%) to boost your preservative system. As far as your preservative is concerned, as a home formulator you should probably consider including it at the maximum usage rate, which for Euxyl PE 9010 I believe it is 1%. There are also more effective preservatives you could consider looking into, such as Liquid Germall Plus or Phenonip P4.

I don’t believe rose hydrosol is offering any benefits to your formula, and it comes at a higher risk of microbial contamination than plain distilled water. If you’re just using it for the scent, I think you would be better off adding a small amount of fragrance instead.

While I don’t have any experience formulating with Vitamin C, I have heard that it is difficult even for professionals to make a cream with it, and that by time the consumer uses it, the Vitamin C will likely have oxidized. I also heard that collagen is too large of a molecule to penetrate the skin, so it might not be adding much to your formula.

For dehydrated skin, you’ve already got a combination of humectants and emollients, but you should consider adding a more occlusive ingredient as well, like petrolatum or dimethicone, or maybe even shea butter or cocoa butter. Dimethicone might offer the best skin-feel for a face cream, try adding it at around 1-2%.

Good luck!

[Camel]

Hello,

ClearHance C is Cassia Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, which is not the same as Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, although they are both generally used for the same purpose. One notable difference is that most of the Guar variety will also thicken your formula, while the Cassia kind will not.

I think that the reason it states it is for rinse-off products is because most of the ingredient’s benefits will be found in this application. However, you should be able to use it in leave-on products. Gold Bond is using Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride in their “Pure Moisture Daily Body & Face Lotion.”

[Camel]

@Microformulation @PhilGeis Would it be beneficial to use both preservatives in a product or is that not recommended?

[Camel]

@ketchito @Abdullah @Microformulation Thank you, I won’t be purchasing it!

[Camel]

What can I use as a substitute for Quaternium-31? What can I substitute for Squalane?

As Perry noted, you don’t need a substitute; they can simply be omitted from the formula. However, if you would like to add a conditioning agent to your shampoo, Polyquaternium-10 is commonly used in big-brand products.

What can I include in my shampoo to get a thick, silky look and feel?

For thickening, you could consider adding Xanthan Gum or Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose. Note that Polyquaternium-10 (if included) can also thicken your product, so depending on how thick you want the shampoo to be, you may or may not need an additional thickener. Polyquaternium-10 can also provide slip that may be perceived as a silky feeling.

For detangling, can I add 1 gram of Sodium Lactate?

You could include a small amount of Sodium Lactate, however, I don’t think it will help with detangling. Detangling is usually achieved through conditioning agents.

Is there anything I should include or remove to make this formula better?

I would remove the Squalane, Quaternium-31 and Panthenol (Provitamin B5), and instead include Polyquaternium-10. I would also recommend adding a chelating agent (Disodium EDTA or Sodium Phytate are a couple of options).

Suggested Starting Formula:

• Water: q.s. to 100%
• Sodium C14-16 Alpha Olefin Sulfonate: 15%
• Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate: 10%
• Cocamidopropyl Betaine: 5%
• PEG-150 Distearate: 1%
• Phenoxyethanol SA: 1%
• Polyquaternium-10: 0.5%
• Glyceryl Oleate: 0.5%
• Sodium PCA: 0.5%
• Sodium Lactate: 0.5%
• Disodium EDTA or Sodium Phytate: 0.3%
• Lactic Acid or Citric Acid: q.s. to pH 4.5-5.5

I am not a professional, nor have I tested this formula myself, but I think it would be a reasonable starting point and you could easily make modifications to it. If you find it isn’t thick enough, you could add Xanthan Gum or Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose at around 0.2-0.5%, removing that same amount from the water.

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

I will remove pq10

Thank you; I will try that. 

Paprik said:

1. Remove HEC and use cationic guar (hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride). 
+ Add high HLB non-ionic emulsifier. It will build viscosity and improve wash off. 
2. I think 1-2% is fine. 
3. Yep, Glycerin is beneficial. Use Glycerin instead of Propanediol. It’s way cheaper and I dare to say way more effective. 

1. I will have to purchase that but I will give it a try. Is 0.3% a good amount? Would Ceteareth-20 or Ceteareth-6 Olivate be good choices for non-ionic emulsifiers?

2. Thank you; I will experiment with 2%. 

3. Thanks for clarifying. Do you think 2% glycerin is enough? 

[Camel]

Cosmetic_Chemist said:

The customer does not want me to use anything besides these two as the base, something about their definition of ‘clean’ and ‘natural’. Is it unlikely to work? I was very skeptical as well but thought i’d get another opinion. 

Polysorbate 80 is considered “natural” to them? Then they should have no problem with other “natural” surfactants. ????

[Camel]

I think (but I’m not 100% certain) you are supposed to find out the rough %’s of each individual component and place them on your LOI accordingly. 

[Camel]

Is it an exfoliating cream? Those generally have a lower pH. I think 3.5 to 3.9 would be okay.

Here is a list from Paula’s Choice detailing the pH ranges of their various lines of products, you may find it interesting:

[Camel]

Which part do you need help with?

[Camel]

Linatural will likely need pH less than 5 to be most effective because of the potassium sorbate. It is comprised mainly of preservative boosters (propanediol and ethylhexylglycerol) so I doubt it would make a good preservation system. 

Is Plantaserve phenoxyethanol + ethylhexylglycerol? If yes, then I think it is a good choice, although I’ve learned from this forum it is not the best for mold and yeast, so you may want to supplement it with something else to cover that. 

Geogard Ultra has sodium benzoate, but the first ingredient is gluconolactone, which I’m not sure how effective of a preservative that is on its own. I think it is also just a booster. I think sodium benzoate will need a pH of 3 to be most effective, and practically ineffective at pH of 6. 

Geogard ECT contains salicylic acid, which cannot be used by children three and under. Might not be a problem if your product is for adults only, but I’m also not sure how effective it is as a preservative.

Just my thoughts. Hopefully an expert will weigh in. 

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

For preservative use DMDM hydantoin. Inexpensive and effective

I will look into that ingredient; thank you! 

[Camel]

ketchito said:

Both Coco sulfate and SLS are non ethoxylated anionic surfactants, and they are very good degreasers, but a bit harsher for kids. Usually, more ethoxylated surfactants are prefered in these kind of products.

Thank you for that information! I should have clarified that I no longer intend on using this product on my kid because of the lack of testing. It is only for my personal use now. I actually tried it as a face cleanser and it worked really well without making my skin feel stripped. 

Interestingly enough, I have seen baby products that use SCS as the second ingredient, but I understand why it wouldn’t be the best choice when there are more gentle surfactants available.

[Camel]

@Abdullah - Thank you for clarifying; I have never used a sulfate before, so they are all new to me. 

@PhilGeis - Thank you for providing that article. Actually, I am only making this product for myself now. It was originally intended for my godson, but I decided I didn’t feel comfortable allowing a three year old child to use a homemade product, so I only use it myself and I don’t sell anything! ????

[Camel]

ketchito said:

I’d replace coco sulfate (it’s very similar to lauryl sulfate). Try a more ethoxylated surfactant, like sodium laureth-3 sulfate (or higher).

@ketchito - Thank you for the suggestion. I purchased SCS because it was cheaper than SLS and SLES and I thought it would function similarly.

Can you explain more about why you don’t recommend it?

[Camel]

GeorgeBenson said:

@Camel how do humectants like glycerin and propanediol help with preservation? Not doubting you I just honestly dont know.

They lower the water activity; the higher % of humectants you have, the lower % of free water there is in the product. Humectants like propanediol have even been shown to boost the efficacy of preservatives. 

[Camel]

My best guess is that they are using a combination of a high percentage of humectants and preservative boosters. Glycerin, propanediol, hexanediol, butylene glycol, dipropylene glycol… as well as ethylhexylglycerin, glyceryl caprylate and disodium edta, which can all boost preservative efficacy. 

I’m not sure how well it works without an actual preservative (at least, I don’t recognize one on the list), but I’m hoping they at least did proper testing if they are big enough to be sold at Sephora. 

Would love to hear what the experts think. 

[Camel]

@Sm00thskin - My advice would be to start small. You have too many ingredients for your first formula and it will be hard to troubleshoot any problems you may find with it.

There are three main components to a proper moisturizer:

• Humectants
• Emollients
• Occlusives

I would suggest you choose one humectant, one emollient and one occlusive to start with.

I would recommend starting with Glycerin as your sole humectant. It is very inexpensive. 

If you want the formula to be clear, you will need to choose a clear oil (or ester) as your emollient. You could try mineral oil if you are concerned about cost, as it is probably the cheapest oil, yet still a very effective emollient.

For your occlusive, I would recommend petrolatum as your most cost-effective (and generally effective) option. You could also consider dimethicone, but it will cost more. 

You will probably need to use a polymeric emulsifier, such as Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, as other emulsifiers will likely create a white lotion. It doesn’t look like your proposed formula has a proper emulsification system. PEG-40 HCO is best used as a solubilizer for fragrances (and I don’t think you’ll even need it with a proper emulsifier…)

You are already using a chelating agent (EDTA), which is great, keep that. 

As for the pH, you will need to purchase a pH meter and check the pH yourself. It would be hard for us to predict the pH of your formula, especially with that many ingredients. 

Your starting formula could look something like this:

• Water
• Glycerin
• Mineral Oil
• Petrolatum
• Polymeric Emulsifier
• Preservative
• Chelating Agent
• Fragrance (optional)

Test it out. Make notes of what you like and what you dislike about it. From there, it will be easier to recommend changes to achieve your desired results. Once you get to the base you like, you can start to add additional ingredients like niacinamide, preferably one-by-one.

Formulating is a test, and unfortunately it requires trial-and-error to pass.

Disclaimer: I am not a professional/expert. This advice comes from my own experience as a beginner and is not sound knowledge. I have also never formulated a clear/transparent lotion, for the record. 

[Camel]

I have been modifying this formula over the past few days, and I think I finally reached a version of it that I am satisfied with.

Increased Butter Pearls from 2 to 5% for viscosity. Decreased niacinamide from 5 to 4%. Added NatraSil at 3% while reducing petrolatum from 5 to 3%. Reduced overall humectants from 10 to 5% (3% propanediol; 2% glycerin). Replaced the elastomer with Dimethicone 350 at 2%. Replaced the Euxyl® PE 9010 with Phenonip® at 0.5%. Reduced HEC from 1 to 0.3% and added xanthan gum at 0.3%.

It is now very light, fast-absorbing and non-tacky.

@Abdullah, @ngarayeva001, @Graillotion, @Pattsi - Any other thoughts or suggestions?

[Camel]

GeorgeBenson said:

I use 5% SCI. Total formula has 31% surfactants including the SCI. Don’t ask me what the solids % is that I do not know.

I would also like to know what @Perry or any one else thinks about this. I did not know about its potential to lose activity over time. 

You can check with your seller; it is important information to know. I think most SCI’s have an active matter around 80-85%. 

[Camel]

Have you tried PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil? I have had success with it. Mix your fragrance oil into the solubilizer before adding it in. 

[Camel]

@briley57 - I’m not an expert but it sounds like one of your ingredients may be incompatible with sodium carbomer. It should easily form a gel at 0.5% without any other gelling agents. 

You could possibly try forming the gel first, with only water, and add your ingredients one by one to see which one breaks the gel network. 

[Camel]

briley57 said:

Thank you for that. Just an update, I received some sodium carbomer and it’s just not look to good. I tried multiple formulations: carbomer w/guarcat, without, with Hec, without, tried w/xanthan gum.  Nothing provided hold. It was very watery and didn’t have the consistency that guarcat, hec, or xanthan could provide. This is the hardest thing ever! lol 

Did you make sure the pH was within the 5-10 range before adding sodium carbomer?

[Camel]

If there is a Kroger or Meijer near you, they also sell VO5, and Target sells Suave. TRESemmé is also on the more affordable side compared to Pantene, around $5 for 28 fl oz.

[Camel]

VO5 shampoos and conditioners are also available at Walmart in the US for $0.98 (15 fl oz) and Dollar Tree stores for $1.25.

Pantene’s price increase is probably due to consumer’s willingness to pay and the brand’s perception as a more premium choice compared to other drugstore brands like VO5, Suave, and Garnier.

I recall you mentioning something about Pantene being the winner in a comparison on hair tresses, so having a superior product (whether or not this is actually noticeable by the average consumer) can also justify the price increase.