[Cafe33]

Well, I have MCT Oil from a USA supplier as well as Myritol® 318 from BASF.

I have to admit that I started with the idea that they are similar but different. It is really out of ignorance at this point. I formulated a lotion bar on a whim and it is very well received by the zero waste crowd here. And of course it has a vegan and natural product story so coconut oil just sounds better.  

I am reading from certain websites that they have different skin feel

https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Caprylic_Capric_Triglycerides/464

I have yet to really test this claim. 

And as usual Pharma is so very helpful in pointing out that the natural product is not as likely to be consistent. I may just keep 1% of actual fractionated coconut oil and replace the rest with the BASF product. 

[Cafe33]

I am currently playing with Plantapon TF from BASF (Decyl Glucoside (and) Polyglyceryl-10 Caprylate/Caprate (and) Coco-Glucoside (and) Glyceryl Oleate)

Using around 15-20%. It already contains Glyceryl Oleate and it also contains a solubilizer for your EO or fragrance. It has a very nice hand feel after washing.

The downside is that it is difficult to thicken. I’ve tried Xantham Gum from 0.3 - 1.0 % and 0.5% is the upper limit in terms of keeping from developing that jelly texture. Unfortunately it was not thick enough.  

I am waiting on some Carbopol® Aqua SF-1 Polymer which is suppose to be compatible with surfactants (15 - 23% active). 

Have you made a sample of your formulation yet? If so, I am wondering how you managed to melt 10.5% SCI in H20?

[Cafe33]

I’ve had good results by simply reducing the glycerin level and adding a small amount of Propylene Glycol. I use 1.0% and 0.4% respectively.

[Cafe33]

Lotioncrafter is great. 

Essentialwholesale.com has very good essential oils.  

[Cafe33]

The commercial rose water I buy is preserved with sodium benzoate. 

[Cafe33]

I might be able to help you with the Alcohol (msg sent), but I am also in need of plastic bottles. 

[Cafe33]

You have some expensive oils/butter in your formula but the BTMS is actually what will work best.  I would remove the emulsifying wax and increase the BTMS-50 to 4%. I would also lower the oils and butter to the 1% range. 

[Cafe33]

As someone who has been poison by Methanol fumes and as someone who had little respect for the toxicity of the compound, I can tell you that it is an alcohol that must be respected. Funny how some are worried about formaldehyde releasers yet are considering Methanol (not speaking about the OP, just generally)

I spent 1 month with mental confusion and a bizarre vision problem which made my world feel 2D. I was just in an area where the fume hood was not sufficiently strong for the scale of the reaction. 

The denatured Ethanol I used to purchased contained 5% Methanol. So if 70% was to be used, it would put it somewhere around 3.5%. Not sure about the dermal limit but I certainly would not want to apply that to my hands on a constant basis. 

[Cafe33]

I think you should study how to make lotions. I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve with your formulation. A body butter? You will never be satisfied with this formulation unless you enjoy spreading straight butter/oil on your skin. 

Look for Polawax NF as an emulsifier, it is very easy to use. 

Also a tip for measuring small amounts of an ingredient -

Use a 2-3 decimal place accurate scale (jewelers or pocket scale)
Place Vitamin E container on scale and tare 
Use a disposable plastic pipette (Amazon) to remove the necessary quantity 

If you started at 0.00 and then the scale tells you -0.20, then you have used 0.20 grams. Its not too accurate with something as thick as Vitamin E as it can stick to the pipette but it is certainly better than trying to measure it in a small beaker. You could always place your product beaker on the scale and add the Vitamin E drop by drop. Conclusion, you are much better off with plastic pipettes and a small precise scale. 

[Cafe33]

It is like a stock market situation. I placed an order for 240 pump dispenser bottles. Order went through on the site, BUT!!! it doesnt mean they actually have it in stock. So we were told only 160 were left. And this morning we received an email that they were completely sold out. Keep in mind we paid in full for 240 bottles a day prior.  When we finally reached someone, we were told that they had our order in a box with 127 bottles. 

Things come in and out of stock but you never know how long it will last. It is enough to drive you crazy. I did have a few wins early on like “scoring” 2.2 kg of Carbopol 940 (out of 3.0 kg that I had ordered), 3kg of triethanolamine from another supplier. I have had some luck with Alcohol, 3 suppliers but the price is about to shoot up, so I stocked up. 

The packaging situation is driving me crazy, I have small amounts of different types of bottles and I need to make different label sizes and I certainly don’t have enough packaging! Anyway, needed to rant. 

[Cafe33]

I have successfully made a 8% SCI using 12% SLSa and 10% CAPB (30% Active). Thickens very well, but expensive. 

Excellent for face but I personally found that it doesn’t clean the body well enough. 

[Cafe33]

As far as hard surface disinfectants, you will find many formulations with only hydrogen peroxide as the active substance:

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/disinfectants/covid-19/list.html#tbl1

[Cafe33]

natzam44 said:

I see a lot of people suggesting that you use cetearyl alcohol, and while I agree that it is a good choice, I personally have never seen any benefit of using it over cetyl alcohol alone.

If cetyl alcohol is cheaper or more widely available in your region, then you may want to just go with that. 

I agree. I asked myself that question many months ago and after many different formulations and a few small scale knockout experiments, I can say that Cetyl Alcohol has superior skin feel over Cetearyl Alcohol. 

In terms of thickening, I think a combination of the two is my preferred method.

[Cafe33]

If you don’t have a chemistry background and you would like an easy way to get introduced to concepts and certain formulations, I recommend http://www.swiftcraftymonkey.com e-books. 

I do find some of her formulation are good, but sometimes excessive in terms of expensive ingredients but its a nice intro. 

[Cafe33]

em88 said:

Cafe33 said:

PG works as you described but in much smaller percentage. 1.5% was way too high. Somewhere around 0.3-0.4 % works well 

That’s way too low. 
3-5% is the right interval

And you have tried this level of PG? I tried 1.5% and it was terrible. I can’t imagine 5%. 

[Cafe33]

I am using

Carbopol 940 - 0.30% 
TEA - 0.30%
Glycerine - 1.00 % 
Propylene Glycol - 0.40% 
Fragrance - 0.10% (Dissolved in Glycerine)

I am using EtOH 96% and dH20 (I don’t have the numbers by memory) 

[Cafe33]

PG works as you described but in much smaller percentage. 1.5% was way too high. Somewhere around 0.3-0.4 % works well 

[Cafe33]

Okay, so what about a spray vs gel (same Alcohol %)? I would be inclined to  believe that the spray would cover more surface area on the hands but does it possibly evaporate too quickly as spray whereas a gel would be less volatile?

Any ideas?

[Cafe33]

We have a friend here who is convinced EOs are like medicine. I mean I am not completely sure if she would use it to fight cancer. What I don’t understand is how a company like Doterra is allowed to function in the USA. 

Our friend has entire cases of Doterra products, and no amount of talking to would convince her that they are not holistic drugs.

[Cafe33]

I make similar bars, and I do not have that problem. I dont use glycerine however. 

[Cafe33]

Yikes ! 8% propylene glycol, I use a combination of 1% Glycerine and 0.4% Propylene glycol. Excellent results (using 0.30 % Carbomer)

1.5 % Propylene Glycol gave bad results in terms of hand feel 

[Cafe33]

ozgirl, thank you for the information. I am not suggesting it is for Corona virus. I am trying to work with what I have.

I used to sell cases upon cases of BZK wipes to local hospitals when I had a medical supply business. I used it as an alternative to IPA wipes when I needed to take an injection,

So can we agree that BZK is a sanitizing agent, perhaps not for Corona Virus, but perhaps as a replacement for something like Lysol (cleaning surfaces) ?

Wouldn’t something that had a surfactant and required rubbing with a rag clean fairly well? 

I am working with what I have and here people are running out of cleaning supplies and stores are limiting sales. 

[Cafe33]

Hi Fekher, I will most likely be doing the experiment but unfortunately I need to purchase 25kg of BZK. It has many uses, possibly as a cleaner in spray form. 

I read a patent about a no rinse surfactant based hand and surface cleaner utilzing BZK. 

It is basically 95% H20, Surfactant, 0.1-1.0% Defoaming agent (many polyquats are listed), BZK in 0.08 - 0.25% and a preservative. I will update here if I decided to purchase and proceed. 

[Cafe33]

Yes, I carry 65% Gel with me as well a 70% EtOH spray and rag. I nearly had a panic attack at the grocery store having to handle a cart. 

Look at formulations of benzalkonium chloride wipes. They are interchangeable with Isopropyl Alcohol wipes (for injections etc) I used to sell these when I was a distributor of medical supplies. 

[Cafe33]

ngarayeva001, that is a bizarre… I buy SLES for around 1.40-1.50 USD per kg, And I only need to purchase a kilo. Drums of it are much cheaper. 

I cannot find sodium olefin sulfonate other than from Stepan and Univar and I have to buy drums and it is much more expensive. 

Speaking of expensive, I have been making my first liquid body washes / Shampoos. 

12 % SLSa 
8% SCI (Jordapon, no stearic acid)
12 % CAPB (30% Active)
0.5% Fragrance 

It is impressive how well it thickened without the use of NaCl. 

My next batch will make use of NaCl and maybe adding some Decyl Glucoside, not too impressed with the foaming and adding more SLSa is just too expensive.