Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Hair Making free sulfate shampoo

  • Making free sulfate shampoo

    Posted by Fekher on March 3, 2024 at 5:49 am

    I’am planing good quality free sulfate shampoo so I want some recommendations from expert for that product :

    *Best thickener can used: hpmc, hec, peg 150,saboderm sho,ultrez carbomer, versathix,others…

    *best surfactants(combinaison) :Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate,coco glucoside, caprylyl capryl glucoside, CAPB, disodium cocoamphoacetate, sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, peg 7 glyceryl cocoate, peg 75 lanolin ,isethionates,others…

    Best conditioners: silicones (may cationic to not reduce foam), Pq7, Pq10, other pq, keratin, protein, silk, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, others

    @Perry44 @ketchito @Chemist77 @Paprik @Graillotion @PhilGeis @Pharma @ngarayeva001 and ohers😊

    Fekher replied 1 week, 6 days ago 6 Members · 26 Replies
  • 26 Replies
  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    March 6, 2024 at 12:17 pm

    I cannot recommend any of those thickeners, pal. Are you opposed to using alkanolamide builders or acrylic polymers? If acrylics are not in your plan use Poyquaternium-10 at 1.0% w/w for conditioning effect, with or without silicone, and keep it simple: alpha olefin sulfonate / disodium cocoamphoacetate / then the capryl glucoside or Ninol CAA (Stepan) dimethyl amide to build viscosity.

    • Fekher

      Member
      March 7, 2024 at 6:27 am

      Thanks a lot for you precious answer. Actually i’am open to any good input whatever in thickener, conditioners and surfactants however can you explain me why you will not use any one from listed thickners?

  • Fekher

    Member
    March 26, 2024 at 1:59 pm
  • Paprik

    Member
    March 26, 2024 at 2:16 pm

    I don’t think I will be much of a help in this. I use Sodium Coco Sulfate mostly.

    But, starting to use PEG-150 Distearate or PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate as a thickener - but for facial cleansers. Not sure how well they would perform in hair products. Although the second one is recommended in shampoo formulas.

    You could pair it with HPMC and I would agree with ChemMatt - keep it simple, bearing in mind that HPMC is not compatible with glucosides, polysorbates etc.. (if I remember correctly).

    • Fekher

      Member
      March 26, 2024 at 4:18 pm

      Thanks a lot @Paprik just technically sodium coco sulfate is not free sulfate product may it is commercially free sulfate?!

      About may plan i’am thinking about using alpha olefin sulfonate, then may CAPB, and or glucoside same for sodium lauroyl sacrosinate.

      As thickener I guess I I’ll try alot, cationic guar, Hpmc, ultrez 20,saboderm sho, (Xanthan+guar) gum, versathix.

      • Paprik

        Member
        March 26, 2024 at 5:13 pm

        I don’t think you can call is commercially sulfate-free. You could call it “natural”, from coconut. Directly from the beach to your hair πŸ˜€

        Sacrosinate is anionic, so bear that in mind (when pairing with alpha olefin sulfonate) and generally stable pH>5.

        Good luck! Keep us posted πŸ™‚

        • Fekher

          Member
          March 26, 2024 at 5:18 pm

          Whatever I will not use sodium coco sulfate 😊 and OK boss I will try to make professionals keeping comment.

    • Cafe33

      Member
      March 26, 2024 at 5:00 pm

      PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate - I would highly recommend to avoid this ingredient in Sulfate free Hair Products. Once it is added at over 2.0% in a formula it is extremely difficult to rinse out especially in sulfate free shampoos. Very sticky. It also does not provide stability like acrylic copolymers. I endured a lot of formula separation.

      • Paprik

        Member
        March 26, 2024 at 5:05 pm

        That is what I was actually thinking. As I know it feels a bit “draggy” and “waxy”, if you will, on the face, which is somewhat soothing and mild-like. So I wasn’t sure about the hair situation.

        Pairing with HPMC could help as it could add a bit more slip and boost the foam.

        But yeah, not much of a help on this one πŸ™‚

  • Cafe33

    Member
    March 26, 2024 at 4:52 pm

    Carbopol ETD 2020 - Changed everything for me. I use around 0.6-0.7 % depending on the formula. I have a couple of bottle of shampoo trials, should be around 1.5 years old. They sit in different showers and not a hint of separation and they are loaded with surfactants and 1.5% Fragrance. That is the best tip I can give you. It is a little finicky to use and tends to clump up if you do not follow instructions very carefully.

    • Fekher

      Member
      March 26, 2024 at 5:02 pm

      @Cafe33 It is very interesting tip just i’am familiar working with carbopol so the instructions you meant high shear and adequate neutralisation or more for carbopol edt 2020?

    • Paprik

      Member
      March 26, 2024 at 6:26 pm

      What are you tips to avoid the clumping and achieve perfect dispersion/hydration?

      I haven’t found anything special in the instructions/datasheets on Prospector.

      And I do tend to have issues with lumping so I just mix it, and mix it, and mix it … but also avoiding introducing air.

      • Fekher

        Member
        March 26, 2024 at 6:51 pm

        @Paprik I worked with ultrez 20 which seems too near to edt 2020 so there is no special just high shear for 15 to 25 min with neutralisation and you succeed.

  • Cafe33

    Member
    March 27, 2024 at 1:29 am

    Carbopol ETD 2020 is closer to Ultrez 10 in the way it behaves. There are two options to avoid fish eyes. If you proceed in the same way as when you are formulating with ultrez 20, you will most likely get the fish eyes. The first option is to create a 2% dispersion to avoid separation (you will notice that it tends to separate to a top layer). The second and simpler option is to partially neutralize BEFORE the addition of surfactants. 10% of the total alkaline base you intended to use. pH will be 3.8 - 4.0. Once partially neutralized, proceed as you would with Ultrez 20, anionics etc

    • Fekher

      Member
      March 27, 2024 at 10:04 am

      <div>@Cafe33 thanks a lot for amazing sharing.</div>

      I just worked with ultrez 20 in cream, that’s why maybe I did not face fish eyes problem?!

      Then do you think that ultrez 20 for 10% free sulfate active surfactants can give excellent sensory feeling and stability as carbopol edt 2020 it did?

  • Abdullah

    Member
    March 27, 2024 at 11:42 pm

    With AOS and CAPB you can use NACL to increase viscosity.

  • Abdullah

    Member
    March 28, 2024 at 10:02 am

    Why are you avoiding sulphate?

    • Fekher

      Member
      March 28, 2024 at 11:46 am

      It is free sulfate product a requirement from customer.

  • Fekher

    Member
    March 31, 2024 at 3:32 am

    @Paprik @Abdullah @ketchito @Cafe33 @chemicalmatt @Perry44 for toothpaste I didn’t find sodium hydroxyethylcellulose, then what is the best substitute for it Hec, Hpmc, electrolytes resistant carbomer..?

    • ketchito

      Member
      April 9, 2024 at 6:26 am

      Carrageenan is the usual choice

      • Fekher

        Member
        April 9, 2024 at 6:38 am

        Thanks a lot @ketchito actually in general the used gelifiant is sodium carboxymethylcellulose not as I wrote, then I see some formulation use combination between sodium cmc and xanthan gum.

        I used hpmc adding food grade of sodium bicarbonate the viscosity decrease dramatically going to water viscosity starting with higher viscosity then gel toothpaste.

        So any specific carateristic of Carrageenan which make it good choice for toothpaste?

        • Fekher

          Member
          April 9, 2024 at 6:41 am

          Even in process all I watched use hot process however no one of toothpaste paste need hot process, I guess hot process give better reaction then better viscosity and cohesion?

        • ketchito

          Member
          April 9, 2024 at 12:34 pm

          There are many patents from P&G and Colgate, they both use carrageenan. Here’s an example: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4457908A/en

  • Fekher

    Member
    April 8, 2024 at 12:30 pm

    @ketchito any share about free sulfate shampoo (best thickener, best surfactant? … according to you)

    @Cafe33 can you please tell me if ultrez 20 can give lovely sensory effect for free sulfate shampoo near to the one made with carbopol edt 2020?

    • Cafe33

      Member
      April 9, 2024 at 3:36 pm

      No it will not. Ultrez 20 is not suitable for Shampoo. I ran trials before coming to that conclusion since it would have been a savings for us not to invest in another type of Carbopol.

      • Fekher

        Member
        April 9, 2024 at 4:58 pm

        Thanks a lot for this share @Cafe33

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