[Benz3ne]

ketchito said:

@Benz3ne When you use high levels of CAPB in the presence of (also) high SLES and CDEA, you get faster to a gel phase, especially if you add NaCl. Usually, you want to get closer to it, but with some room to operate. Your could reduce the CAPB and increase CDEA a bit, or reduce CAPB and Increase SLES and NaCl a bit.

Great, thanks for the response. The funny thing is, it’s more when it’s drying it’s forming the ‘gel’. Gel is probably the right word but doesn’t describe the situation as well as I’d like. It’s more like concentrated formulation, sans water. As if you had left it dry in open air, so a similar consistency to 70% SLES. 
The mixture in the bottle is still good - it’s free-flowing but viscous and makes a nice ‘blob’ in your hand when dispensing. This remains the same and doesn’t tend any further towards gel after it’s been produced, so I’m happy with the resulting viscosity otherwise. 
The suggestions you make are definitely interesting - the SLES predominates the surfactant portion of the formulation at around 11%, with the others contributing around 3% and 2% respectively for CAPB and CDEA respectively (not a million miles away from the 6:2:1 ratio that’s touted for basic hand-wash formulations).

Thanks for the comment, food for thought!

[Benz3ne]

Yes, air-tightness helps. There’s far less ‘opportunity’ for volatiles of which the scent comprises to evaporate.
Whether it’ll work for 30 days when unpacked is for you to try, rather for us to guess. Get yourself a cheap heat-sealer and packaging, package a few, leave some in a cupboard and some in the sun for a few days, then open and test for 30 days.
Do the same for a week, 3 weeks, 7 weeks, whatever you fancy and see whether it lasts 30 days thereafter.
Easy enough, just put your time into it.

On an aside, this forum is typically discussing cosmetics so not car air fresheners.

[Benz3ne]

If it’s yellow it might not be a perfect emulsion. Try a freeze-thaw cycle or two and see whether any separation occurs.
If you want to artificially colour anything white, titanium dioxide is your well-known friend.  

[Benz3ne]

As David has mentioned, really. Easy enough. Just be mindful of saponification values to make sure you haven’t any excess NaOH in your sodium stearate.
Otherwise it might be listed as ‘stearic acid, sodium salt’ or ‘sodium octadecanoate’.

[Benz3ne]

What order are you mixing your pigments in? Perhaps try the black first and ensure homogeneity before adding the red and yellow iron oxides?
Otherwise, have a look at your raw materials’ particle size/mesh. Having it closer to that of the yellow/red iron oxides might help aid dispersion. I’ve seen issues first-hand of black iron oxides trying to drop out of typically stable mixtures on account of being physically dense.
Lastly, check whether your yellows/reds include any talc or not. This will oftentimes help dispersion help keep the mixture in suspension.

[Benz3ne]

It largely depends on what ‘essence’ you’re using, as you’ve identified using Essence 1 and Essence 2. 
Typically, if there’s a degradation of thickening for x% of your essence, then increasing it to y% (where y > x) is going to exaggerate that degradation.

That said, you can try it yourself by adding 0.1%, 0.5%, 1%, 5% etc. and see what impact it has.

[Benz3ne]

I’ve a reasonable amount of experience with Carbopol 940 and ethanol.
What % ethanol are you using? I’ve found that either constant incorporation with sieving makes for a resulting mixture without fisheyes.
On the bench scale, which should scale up, it’s easy to sieve onto surface, allow to wet, then mix with a high-shear mixer for a short period.
Thereafter, neutralise and dispense.

I’ve had no issues doing this with water present, so can be the ethanol:water mixture itself.
No need for methylparaben from what I’ve seen. The only potential is fungal spores with contaminated packaging, for which a small proportion of hydrogen peroxide works nicely, as per the WHO formulations. Otherwise, ethanol is a good preservative, especially in higher concentrations.
Bear in mind that carbopol 940 isn’t a fan of plenty of other ingredients. Though I’ve had little issue incorporating essential oils for fragrance, it hasn’t worked with aloe vera extracts and surfactants will readily degrade the gel matrix.

The amount of ethanol in your mixture, whilst creating a stable gel, will also rely on the neutralising agent used. I’ve found AMP (aminomethyl propanol) works nicely for a strong hand sanitiser.

[Benz3ne]

Fekher said:

supposed contain fixative but actually I don’t really belive that. 
 And why many think that using isopropanol is bad idea to make perfume as I read?

Why don’t you believe it? If they state that it contains isopropyl myristate, benzyl benzoate or propylene glycol then it is more fixative than ‘pure’ ethanol.
Have a look at the SDS for isopropanol. It’s is more narcotic (with respect to drowsiness/dizziness) than ethanol for the most part. 

[Benz3ne]

Pattsi said:

Sterile water for irrigation is distilled water(medical grade) - hypotonic, you can pretty much use it since you already have it. I use it sometimes when I’m DIYing at home.
Normal saline solution is 0.9% NaCl solution - isotonic, can’t be used in formulation.

My apologies, you’re absolutely right. My misunderstanding was that my better half prepares saline solutions for IV administration in a hospital and had mentioned it. That’s where my confusion lay.

[Benz3ne]

elirit said:

Lol. That person got it free for her child that gets fed through a g-tube. I tried to edit the title. It is called Sterile Water for Irrigation, (not injection).

Sterile water for irrigation may well contain a small percentage of table salt (NaCl) which is worth bearing in mind if you use it for fun trials/formulations.
I think there’s only a handful of manufacturers of sterile water for irrigation. The one that springs to mind first is Baxter, but that’s just me spouting useless info.

[Benz3ne]

Newtoformulating said:

@klangridge Thanks so much! It will be a product applied to the edges/front hairline so definitely will be in contact with the roots of the hair and through my research denatured alcohol was strongly discouraged for African American hair products which thats what I have created. Thanks so much for taking time to reply!

@singhc10 thanks so much! I will look into that as an alternative! Thanks for taking time to reply!

You could use a little Ethanol or isopropanol to aid evaporation. It doesn’t have to be much to have an effect, so the drying aspect associated with neat/raw ethanol blends is reduced.

[Benz3ne]

Pharma said:

Define ‘pharmaceutical alcohol’.

Common alcohol used in perfumes aka ARO alcohol is cheap and odourless = denaturated with non-volatile compound such as bitter tasting rosemary extract. Other denaturanting agents such as camphor (commonly used to denaturate pharmaceutical ethanol), isopropanol or ketones may affect flavour profile or destroy fabrics whilst denatonium benzoate is too bitter to be used in cosmetics.

The ‘perfect’ ethanol would be pure ethanol which you can not buy in pharmaceutical quality (it has no alcohol tax on it and therefore can only be used for pharmaceutical products) unless it’s sold as drinking alcohol. Here in Switzerland, the two versions used/sold in pharmacies are actually the same, just taxing and hence pricing are very different. Therefore, ARO ethanol is used for cosmetic products and perfumes.

Similar here in UK - there’s TSDA1 which is suitable for cosmetics, containing a minute portion of tBuOH and Bitrex (denatonium benzoate). There’s also TSDA5 which is more specifically for toiletries/perfumes, containing 95% ethanol and 5% benzyl benzoate*. 
Perfumers alcohol, as found on sites such as eBay/Amazon/etc. is typically an undisclosed ethanol blend (such as TSDA1, or not) and isopropyl myristate and/or monopropylene glycol. The idea is to have the iPr Myr. or Prop Glycol as fixatives, so enhancing the longevity of your resulting perfume.
*the benzyl benzoate acts as the fixative in this formulation.
The TSDA’s would require an Excise licence from HMRC, buying small portions off eBay wouldn’t, though there’s no guarantee they’re shipping it correctly in-line with dangerous goods transport regs, or that the ethanol used is fit for purpose.

[Benz3ne]

Another for Gem Stones - Bad Lab Co.’s “Baby Faced Assassin” face wash has Lapis Lazuli listed in the ingredients.

[Benz3ne]

Tyss said:

Dear all
a perfumed soap with a synthetic perfume can we claim on the label “natural product” knowing that the soap is without coloring, without preservative, without chelating agent.

Best regards
TAYCIR BAHLOUL

I think the requirements for ‘natural’ branding depend a little on global position/market. Regardless, it needs to be evidenced that it is natural as it is marketed. 
If you’re talking soap as in saponified oils, there might be some debate as to whether your soap is natural given that NaOH and KOH are probably not technically natural themselves.
It might therefore be worthwhile looking into ‘organic’ type marketing claims? There are also thresholds for organic claims, which might be more attainable if its as above.
‘Naturally-derived’ might also be a marketing term that you could utilise, but I think it’s worth investigating more.

[Benz3ne]

emma1985 said:

Lotioncrafter sells Rice Bran Wax which looks interesting (I’m a huge fan of Rice Bran Oil.) I don’t want a waxy texture obviously so, again, the wax would be used in small concentrations. 

Rice bran wax is reasonably nice to work with. I would describe it as reasonably waxy, but as you mention it’s a co-formulant so you might not get much waxiness if used in smaller quantities. 
It’s, in my experience, less ‘tacky’ than beeswax, so that might suffice. I don’t know how occlusive it is, but obviously that would depend on loading, and goes back to point (a) that more used = waxier. 

Looking into the Brassica (etc) copolymer you mentioned, there’s mention of lecithin being a comparable substitute. They both appear, as liquids, to be slow absorbers so I don’t know how it’d feel on the face as a moisturiser. 

[Benz3ne]

As above, acetic acid worked well for me. Grab yourself some glutaraldehyde and have fun crosslinking it! Can be dilute acetic acid but you’ll obviously be able to dissolve less chitosan in dilute acid solns.
@Leo  In all seriousness, curious as to why you want to solubilise chitosan…

[Benz3ne]

Bill_Toge said:

they could try filling it more slowly, and/or using filling nozzles that go to the bottom of the bottle and fill it up while raising (I’ve forgotten the proper name for this type of filler, sorry)

I was thinking along the same lines (and also the name has failed me).

[Benz3ne]

Tyss said:

Dear all,

We are currently producing a natural hard soap made from palm, copra and olive oil.

We want to substitute palm oil for environmental reasons.

I need your help to guide me on the right choice of the plant-based substitute for palm oil which can play the same role and harden the soap.
Best regards

You could look into RSPO sources? RSPO = roundtable on sustainable palm oil, and they help with identifying compliant supply chains.

[Benz3ne]

David08848 said:

Benz3ne,
As long as it works for you!  I’m selling to the “shaving community” out there online and they are quite a tough crowd with lots of experience with all of the varieties of Lathering Shaving Cream made and sold all over the world which doesn’t make it easy!  Interestingly, the original post included a formula that was posted on this site but it wasn’t put up here correctly in the first place!  It is actually a Harry’s Cosmeticology formula that didn’t include “Palm” oil but rather “Palm Kernel” oil which puts it into a different ballpark!  Also the ratio of KOH to NaOH at 7.0% to 1.5%  is not actually a 5/1 ratio which is what is most often suggested!  Yup!  A balancing act for sure!
David

That’s exactly it! I would consider myself part of the ‘shaving community’, albeit lighter involvement now than previously. I had an inherent interest in straight razors, though I’ve now dwindled that stash (with much sellers’ remorse).
Ah, see that’s where the devil is in the detail. Coconut vs fractionated coconut, TEA vs TEA stearate, Palm vs Palm Kernel… it all makes a difference!
It’s funny how you’ll spend all this time perfecting something and you get the one oddball who says something along the lines of:
“But Vitos/Cella/insert old-school Italian soap name here is just as good, costs less and was made x decades ago!” - tough crowd indeed.

[Benz3ne]

biofm said:

Controlled release of solutes is an interesting subject. I’m developing a composite to manage the release salts for a different application. We probably should exchange some notes.

IMO, controlled release of salts is probably a different mechanism to controlled release of volatiles. Still, you might well have some crossover so no harm exchanging notes!

[Benz3ne]

Dtdang said:

woul you please sharing the concept how to do that?
Thanks in advance 

Have a look into microencapsulation. It’s a reasonably hot topic these days with a wide variety of applications.

[Benz3ne]

crillz said:

I understand the requirements for listing ingredients for products for sale. But, is it still a must if I am not selling the product and just giving them out as Christmas gifts?

I believe that the EU Cosmetic Products Regulations stipulate that a product must be registered before distribution, including samples. I guess that gifts would fall into the latter.
You might also not know about an allergy that someone has if they’ve been coy about it. For a little bit of effort writing them out I think it’s worthwhile.

[Benz3ne]

David08848 said:

Benz3ne,
This formula is for a Lathering Shaving Cream.  Stearic Acid has a high meltpoint compared to typical soap making oils and is used both in this type of product and in a puck of hard shaving soap because of the lather that stearic acid can produce if it is paired with some form of Coconut Oil.  Typically Stearic Acid produces a dense foam type of lather and for shaving, “bubbles” are not what is needed to make it a good product.  Castor Oil containers a large percentage of Ricinoleic Acid which creates a soap that is quite water soluble and creates larger “bubbles” which are not what is sought to create a good lather for shaving.  Fractionated Coconut oil is also an oil that is not only more expensive but creates a very soft soap which would not be ideal for any soap type product!  Typically Glycerin is used in the 5%-10% range in shaving cream products and does assist in creating slip and glide needed for lathering shaving cream.  Typically a superfat is included in shaving creams and shaving soaps and from my research starting back in 2004, the 4% range is what is suggested in old soapmaking, cosmetic chemistry books, patents and other information available starting in the 1920’s and continuing through the next few decades.  It is quite a balancing act and getting just the right consistency as well as good performance is not easy!

David

  

Thanks David - yes I agree. ‘Bubbles’ is probably not quite the right word, and I’m drawing a lot from memory of around 2 or 3 years ago when I was trying my hand at shaving soaps. Lathers are, in essence, small bubbles anyway so I think the distinction is reasonably moot.
The things I recall is that stearic acid saponified rapidly, that coconut oil-bases if used at higher %’s are typically quite drying, that the combination thereof typically makes stable lathers. I recall that small quantities of castor oil really aided the glide of the lather. 
As you allude to, it’s all about the balancing act. There’s no benefit in a wholly stearic acid soap, a wholly coconut oil soap, etc. for shaving. 
The consistency I eventually settled on was a soft ‘block’. Malleable but not a cream. Gave a rich, dense lather with little effort and was reasonably heavily superfatted in lieu of less glycerine. I’m also blessed with soft water so that helps when trying lathers.

Long and short of it is the balancing act and that some people like things that others don’t!

[Benz3ne]

David08848 said:

If it is actually TEA Stearate then it would probably work out to .9% triethanolamine and 1.8 stearic acid with .1% superfat included in the stearic.  The ratio of the NaOH to the KOH seems to be the problem here.  The oils used in the percentages listed are the same as a formula posted here by “saleem” in 2012:

“Here is a simple formulation of shaving cream with its
simple procedure.

(A)

Stearic acid =                        30.00%

Coconut oil =                        10.00%

Palm Oil =                             5.00%

(

Potassium Hydroxide =     7.00%

Soda caustic =                      1.50%

Glycerin =                             10.00%

water =                                  36.50%

 The ratio of the oils in the above formula is about 5/1 which many sources suggest and the .3% NaOH used in this formula is quite low throwing this ratio with the 7.5% KOH to 20something/1 ratio which is way out of the ballpark!  My formula with 4.5% Tea Stearate made a batch that was wet and pasty so I’m thinking that the too low NaOH and what may be too high Tea Stearate may be the reason it did what it did!  Such strange results!  Benz3ne, what do you think?

David

TEA Stearate vs TEA seems to be a very valid point in my opinion.
I’ll also agree that the NaOH vs KOH values seemed way out of whack. I’ve seen 5:1 being mentioned before but had a good go with a veggie-friendly shaving soap (harder, rather than cream/paste) with 3:2 KOH:NaOH and that firmed up nicely also. It is absolutely worth noting that the Stearic Acid definitely likes to freeze up during hot process. Something that I’ve seen mentioned on multiple occasions.
I am, however, interested in the distinction between Belassi’s formula vs Saleem’s, in that Belassi’s contained Polyquaternium-7. 
I recall doing some fiddling a while back with shaving soaps/creams and found that stearic-heavy formulae gave a lot of fluffy bubbles. Nice to look at but not substantially slippy to provide glide during shaving. Saponifying castor oil definitely helped, as did palm oil. I don’t recall trying with coconut oil but have some fractionated coconut oil to hand now so I may well dig out some notes and give it a go (with PolyQuat-7 included I think) and see how that goes.
Similarly, I found that overloading with glycerine gave stick/tack rather than slip so that’s worth noting.
Laaasttly, I have some vague recollections of accounting for evaporative losses with water content, though I could’ve dreamt that up… It’s always worth noting that superfatting is a very worthwhile avenue to explore for shaving soaps.

[Benz3ne]

klangridge said:

There are many different grades of HEC and you should be able to find some options with high clarity. Generally, carbomer will lose its viscosity in formulations with high surfactant or salt levels.

Generally agreed, but there are carbomers that work suitably well with surfactants and salts - we’re all still assuming what level of surfactants are being used, or whether or not there’s co-formulants that are resulting in a lack of clarity. I think @Soona disclosing some of their formulation would help.