[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Hahaha…. I have 80 fragrances…from maybe 10 vendors.

There is no one company better than another as far as finding something you like…that is all just personal opinion.

I was thinking about selling them off on e-bay….in lots of 10….grab bag style…hehehe.

Ohh…and of those 80…I have one that I like, and maybe 2-3 that won’t kill me.   

And of course in this industry…there are many re-packers…selling the same thing with different names.  

Oh goodness!! Well, I’m glad I’m not the only one!  I have a bunch of fragrance oils that I will probably never use because out of all of them, I really only like 2 or 3 of them! Damn, ok, was hoping you would have a special fragrance supplier that you love and could direct me to but I guess my search will continue. One lesson I have learned is that I shouldn’t buy more than 1 or 2 small or sample sized fragrance oils from any one vendor, hehe ????

[abierose]

Perry said:

@abierose - it’s not that you are necessarily sacrificing effectiveness, it’s just that you are duplicating effort and more of it is rinsing down the drain. 

Think of it like this. 
Behentrimonium chloride has 22 carbons per molecule
Cetrimonium chloride has 16 carbons per molecule

Let’s make the assumption More carbon left behind = better conditioning.
Let’s make another assumption that a strand of hair can “receive” 10 molecules of conditioner.  

So, if you treat it with a Behenyl only system you’ll get 220 carbons on the hair
and a CTAC only system will have 160 carbons on the hair.

If that was the case, the Behenyl system would be seen as “better”.  Whether you would notice or not is a matter of opinion but let’s just say it is.

Now, if you mix Behenyl and CTAC they will each compete from the 10 slots equally so maybe you get 5 behenyl and 5 CTAC which would be 190 carbons on the hair.  

Of course, this is just simplified and theoretical but hopefully you get the idea of why mixing them could result in lessened conditioning.

Wow! What a great answer! Thanks for breaking it down to me and in a simple way for me to understand ???? Very cool, thank you! 

So is more carbon left behind on the hair more conditioning..? Or are you saying it’s am assumption because the actual chemistry of hair conditioning and conditioning ingredients are much more complex and depend on multiple factors..? 

If you taught a chemistry class, I would definitely take it!! ☺

[abierose]

Perry said:

Sure, if you’re using the Behentrimonium chloride to emulsify your system you’ll want to have a co-emulsifier to improve stability. It’s a trade off. You may be improving stability but reducing conditioner effectiveness. Or maybe you won’t notice. If you need better product stability, include the CETAC. If it is stable without it, don’t.

Hi Perry…so by including both Behentrimonium chloride and CTAC in a conditioner formula, you are potentially sacrificing the effectiveness of the conditioner? Am I understanding this correctly? And if so, why would the conditioning effect be reduced? Just curious!! I’ve never used Behentrimonium chloride in any of my formulations ????‍♀️ Thanks!

[abierose]

helenhelen said:

@abierose I get a strong healing effect from panthenol on my parched skin. When I’ve used the liquid version on my skin neat, it has a definite positive effect.. obviously I would never use it regularly like that as it’s so sticky… I’ve only ever used it neat to get a feel for what it does. It also usually has an effect on a formulation… sometimes it makes it feel nicer (richer, rounder), sometimes worse (sticky, draggy). You just have to try different levels and see what works.

As a consumer, I would never seek out panthenol in products though. It’s not very exciting.. a bit overdone by the whole Pantene thing in the old days.

I used to use allantoin but when I left it out, I didn’t see any negative effect so I haven’t picked it back up. I also wondered if it had an exfoliating effect and could actually be problematic/drying when used repeatedly (as I would use a cream on my hands)…  

Wow! That is good to know that you get a strong healing effect from Panthenol. It seems like the general consensus amongst consumers is that Panthenol does add benefit to cosmetic products. I can understand why it is pointless to use it in rinse off products though. Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists’ world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients. But I’ve also heard that Argan oil isn’t anything more than a “label appeal” ingredient too, yet I know people who SWEAR that it does wonders for their hair ????‍♀️ 
As far as Allantoin goes, I only use it at point 3 percent (.3%) in my formulations and I always add it in the cool down ingredients to prevent any recrystalization, which would cause the exfoliating effect you mentioned. 
Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback on this topic! I really appreciate any and all the information I get!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters ????

Butters and scent…directly correlate to level of cleanliness and refinement.  Want any butter you can dream about…without the scent…. Look at the refined Danish butters sold at MYO… In a class by themselves.

Good to know! Would you say MYO’s butters are superior to NDA’s? I haven’t purchased butters from either but I know you have recommended NDA before. 

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…

OMG…you badly misread my statement… That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

And ummh….B5 level…way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well… it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water….Not formula….WATER.  Hence….in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent…aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.   

Hehehe….sorry I use those as part of my marketing….(What my products DON’T contain.)

I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support…so maybe look at an oil high in GLA….or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

Keep in mind….if you use silk…I believe it can no longer be considered….Vegan.

Ohh!! Yes, point 1 is quite different!! And I only use Allantoin at point 3 (.3) percent in my formulations.  I also prefer to use claim ingredients that have at least some scientifically proven benefit. I wouldn’t feel right about using ingredients that have absolutely zero benefit. I have searched for conclusive data on Panthenol and whether or not it actually has any benefits and I have yet to find anything from a reliable source or study backed white papers on that. The suggested usage rate for Panthenol in skincare products is 1-5%…is 2% too high still? And yeah, the silk peptides are not considered vegan, which I don’t like either.

Hmmm…guess I have a bunch of Panthenol AND silk peptides that I won’t be using ????

[abierose]

RedCoast said:

If the smell is too bothersome, try a plain amino acid blend like the Prodew series. You can find other plain blends from some repackers.

I’ve tried a plant-based peptide (soy) once. I couldn’t stand the odor, so I never used it again. Odors for natural/plant-based peptides are quite common! (And many other non-deodorized plant oils and butters for that matter!)

I’ll look into the Prodew Series. Thank you!

And I agree, there are a LOT of other such ingredients that have strong, and often times off-putting odors…I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters ????

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

My suggestion….I have been down that road….make it with and without….see if you can feel a difference.   If not…leave it out.  If not…and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%…it shouldn’t stink up the product…and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.)  

(ohh…and my new products do not include it…)

Great suggesting to use it at 1%…I used it at 3% in the lotion with the odor coming through. To be honest I assumed it would be more beneficial as label appeal more than anything…same with the 2% Panthenol ???? I had actually stopped using both of these ingredients some time ago but decided to reintroduce them into this formula because I took out the colloidal oatmeal…the oatmeal was, as you very well know, too difficult to keep preserved and without an effective enough preservative system in place for it I didn’t feel comfortable using it ????‍♀️

Do you have any suggestions or opinions on other similar ingredients that are effective and have label appeal? I have been using Allantoin a lot lately and I have an embarrassing amount of different hydrolyzed proteins and extracts and oils…

Thank you so much for the feedback!

[abierose]

Pharma said:

Depends on the manufacturing process. If it’s yellow to brown, it’s probably chemically hydrolysed and smells of soup/bouillon. If it’s white, it’s more likely enzymatically hydrolysed. In which case it starts to have a distinct smell only if it’s so heavily hydrolysed that there’s an increasing amount of single amino acids. ‘Clean’ enzymatically processed polypeptides shouldn’t have any (or only a negligible) smell.

Hmm…yes it is slightly off-white and the smell could maybe be described as bouillon…really stale, dusty bouillon…what is the typical manufacturing process? Is it more difficult to find “clean” enzymatically processed polypeptide? Is there a standard?
Thanks again for your feedback! You are definitely a wealth of knowledge. I have learned a lot from your feedback on other posts ????

[abierose]

domicanica said:

Hey @Graillotion, I’m just wondering if you have an opinion on Essential Wholesale, Wholesale Supplies Plus and Making Cosmetics?

I use these three resellers often and haven’t had any issues thus far with any of them. Essential Wholesale is nice because you can get sample sizes of any of their products. Their natural fragrance oils are really nice too. They are also one of the fastest when it comes to shipping. Wholesale Supplies Plus has some decent products and good prices but it takes 2-3 weeks to get your order and  they do not carry anything organic. Making Cosmetics has a lot of cool products and label appeal ingredients. They ship orders out fairly quickly but they can be a bit pricey. Anyway, just my 2 cents 😉

[abierose]

shuchi said:

Hi All

I tried a leave on conditioner formulation and the issue is that it has turned thicker in consistency as against the intended gel like consistency. THe formula details are

Phase A                       %                          
D/w                          81.80
guar gum                    0.50
cetearyl alcohol           2.00
glycerine                     1.50

Phase B
Quat 7                         3.00
Quat 10                       2.00
Stearic acid                  2.00
BTMS 50                      5.00

Phase C
Dimethicone                2.00
Cetrimonium Chloride 1.50

Phase D
D panthenol in water   1.50
M paraben                   0.50
Fragrance                    0.30
Citric acid                    0.10
Keratin+ bitoin & water1.00

The intended pH was between 4.5 & 4.9. Mine was at 4.8. I was quite happy with the testing. The hair detangled beautifully and turned absolutely soft and frizz controlled. Also, the keratin+biotin capsules were meant for intake and I experimented with them. The result was quite pleasing. The hair fall had reasonably reduced with just 2 uses. 

However, the fishy odor was a spoiler. I referred some blogs and tried increasing the fragrance as discussed in some forums too. I had to nearly pour half of a 30 ml bottle. One week gone now, the conditioner has turned to a cream consistency and the perfume is overpowering. Also, the perfume used was brown in color and so I presume that the pinkish color of the conditioner is an impact of the fragrance. I am happy with the impact on the hair but am looking for expert views on how I could achieve transparent gel like consistency without the fishy odor. 

Looks like you’ve got some things in the wrong phases…I believe cetearyl alcohol should be in with your Phase B ingredients and your Quats should be in your Phase A. 

[abierose]

Paprik said:

What I’ve just learnt from my study with IPCS is that Vit E should be added below 40°C. However, when pouring hot products, balms for example, you can add it into molten product, but at as low temperature as possible, as the heat will oxidize it. Also, you should count with the oxidizing effect and increase the input of the Vit E. 

Hope that helps

Thank you Paprik! Unfortunately I’m still not 100% sure as to when it should be added, but I definitely appreciate you trying to clarify this for me ????

[abierose]

@Graillotion Sorry I forgot to mention…I’m using Vitamin E T-50 (INCI: Tocopherol). It’s not super critical to know whether or not it can be added in the heated oil phase but it would be nice to get a definitive answer ???? But really, the only time it would be more convenient to add it at higher temps would be when making lip balms or deoderants or anything that sets up super quickly or begins to harden at temps higher than 40°(C). 

[abierose]

@Graillotion thank you for clearing that up for me!!

[abierose]

chemicalmatt said:

I’ll second Perry’s comment: these polyquaterniums are very robust, heat will not affect the,. However I recommend always dispersing these cellulosics, not just the polyquats, to cold water first then heat to effect hydration. Same with guars and the other polysaccharide resins, otherwise you are guaranteed the fisheyes Perry mentions. Those plug up your vessel’s transfer valves and make your compounders really crabby and resentful. We only want happy, smiley compounders.

Ah, thanks for that info! Good to know! 

[abierose]

Perry said:

No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It’s usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause “fish eyes” (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.

Thanks for clarifying that Perry. Yes, it is definitely more convenient to add them to the water phase! And then what about Vitamin E..? Is that heat sensitive or not? I have read conflicting information multiple times on whether this ingredient should be added to cool down or not. 
Thank you!!

[abierose]

jemolian said:

When to add the ingredients depends on the context. 

For example for the Polyquaternium-7, if it’s a cold process formula, add it to the water phase. If it’s a heat process formula, you can add it during the cool down phase. 

For the Vit E, add it during the processing where the mixture is still liquid to ensure better dispersion. For example, if it’s a heated balm, add it while it’s still slightly warm so that it can be mixed in. If it’s a normal emulsion type formula where you have normal cool down phase below 40 degree Celsius, add it during that phase. 

Oh, ok….so the Polyquaterniums are heat sensitive and will degrade or be less effective if heated over a certain temperature?
Thanks for helping me understand this better!

[abierose]

shuchi said:

shuchi said:

Should I knock off the thickeners? Will it give me the same result if reduced BTMS 50? The percentage of 5 was keeping in mind the advice received from one of you here that when silicones are used, we may have to use more BTMS 50. Please correct my understanding if wrong. Many thanks.

About the BTMS 50 was for the fishy odor.

Yea, the btms50 can be fishy but shouldn’t be overpowering or even noticeable in the end product. I would find a new supplier for your btms50.

[abierose]

ngarayeva001 said:

20% polysorbate 80 and 80% of polar ester. IPM is medium polarity. I mean octyldodecanol or C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate or CC triglycerides (althout these can vary depending on supplier). Poly 80 would sink to the bottom of the container if it’s not properly solubilised. Tried many esters and oils, only the 3 I mentioned worked for me. It’s relevant for a liquid product like a blooming bath oil. IPM migh work if some thickener is added to make it into a melt.

Ok! Thank you!!

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

Really?! Well I guess I’m glad I did purchase the Babassu oil then! I can’t believe I never looked at the comedogenic rating for it yet since that is usually one of the first things I do when purchasing new-to-me oils. 
And I haven’t purchased anything from NDA yet but I have used MYO in the past.
Thanks!!

When I am sourcing ingredients for a product….I’ll typically buy the same product from LC, FSS, NDA and MYO, (and Noble Roots in the past)….and compare them.  Absolutely jaw dropping how they will vary from vendor to vendor.

NDA will almost always win.

Except butters….MYO…hands down the best.  (They sell the good Danish stuff!)

Thank you for the info! This is so helpful to me, especially since I haven’t purchased from NDA yet and have definitely been burnt by a few online vendors, namely Amazon but at least I have always been able to get a refund for orders that were totally unsatisfactory or incorrect or never even arrived…I purchased a Ginger fragrance oil through Amazon a while back…no joke it smelled like wet cigarette butts!! ????????

[abierose]

@Graillotion Did you ever find or come up with an effective preservative system that could handle the colloidal oatmeal? I’m using it in a couple of lotions I make and it is literally the only thing I have ever seen mold (which happened at about 3 months). 

Also, I use it in conjunction with hydrolyzed oats in one product…would this have the same preservative challenges as the colloidal oatmeal?

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

helenhelen said:

Maybe look up octyldodecanol..

Babassu oil is a nice light oil that is solid at room temperature (low melting point though).

And I do have Babassu oil but after I purchased it, I started reading everywhere that it is nearly identical to coconut oil, only more expensive ????‍♀️

Thank you for the information!

Ohhhh…. Babassu is soooooo much better.  Especially if you start making facial products.  Compare the comedogenic ratings!

Quality of oils varies enormously between vendors.  The best I have gotten was from NDA… but not far behind was MYO.

Really?! Well I guess I’m glad I did purchase the Babassu oil then! I can’t believe I never looked at the comedogenic rating for it yet since that is usually one of the first things I do when purchasing new-to-me oils. 
And I haven’t purchased anything from NDA yet but I have used MYO in the past.
Thanks!!

[abierose]

ngarayeva001 said:

what is the reason not to use cetyl alcohol with btms? it doesn’t have enough to assure good viscosity. stearic acid is draggy. can it be used? yes, but the product won’t be aesthetically pleasing

Interesting…yeah I’ve used ceryl alcohol with btms in the past but then some time ago, someone pointed out that I should use something else, such as cetearyl alcohol, since btms50 already has cetyl alcohol. I guess it would just depend on the percentages used.
And I 100% agree with you about stearic acid…WAY too dragging, even at 1% or 2%! ????

[abierose]

AlexV said:

Hello everyone! Im making face cream moisturizer and i want to replace water with no gluten oat water for its emollient properties for dry and irritated skin. 2 questions.

How can i make this water? how many parts oat and water and for how long?

Also, how long does it lasts before i put it on the cream phases? Sorry for my English.

I use Colloidal Oatmeal in some of my products. I dissolve it into the water phase of my formulations and it has worked well. I would, however, make sure you have a good preservative system to go along with it and be aware that this ingredient is what is typically called bug food and using it will definitely affect the shelf life of your product. 

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

abierose said:

@Graillotion what percentage should I start off at? And I have Isopropyl Myristate so would that work at least until I get the Lauryl Laurate? Thanks!!

I assume you have a formula you are working off of….otherwise… one way to see what the competition is doing is to use this website:

INCIDecoder - Decode your skincare ingredients

When you see something you like….enter it here….or an ingredient…and it will provide you with some useful info….at least on those components that are above the 1% line.

Oh perfect! This is very helpful! I just love the wealth of knowledge on this forum and appreciate all the help and feedback!