[abierose]

Without knowing what else is in your formula, it’s gonna be difficult to help you…

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku’s that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper….No industry bias allowed.
Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.

That was very well put. ????????

[abierose]

This is a great question @MattTheChemist!
I’m gonna 100% agree with Perry’s statement that the marketing is the most important in getting someone to purchase the product, and the product itself should be attractive enough to bring the customer back to repurchase. I can say that there are a LOT of products on the market today that WAY underperform in nearly every aspect but the marketing is great, the packaging is eye-catching, and/or the story is one people want to be a part of. However I do believe that most of those brands will not last long without creating a better product and even then, first impressions can be everything…

[abierose]

Pattsi said:

abierose said:

Would older (30 years ago) home perm kits have any of the aforementioned chemicals and if so, is it possible those chemicals could permanently alter the way ones hair grows? My hair was as straight as straight could be up until I was about 11 years old when a family “friend” permed my hair and since then my hair is wavy…and yes, I remember the smell…yuck! ????

It’ likely to be just genetics and puberty.

Yes, I did read that puberty may have been responsible for the sudden textural change ???? And we can’t escape the genes!! ????

[abierose]

I believe @Abdullah has experience using amodimethicone…

[abierose]

DaveStone said:

According to a study of Keratineses, this Ronozyme ProAct could straighten hair (better in conjunction with sodium thioglycolate).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095591/

 This patent also depicts a keratinase from that study
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8413666B2/en

I thought ammonium thioglycolate was the chemical used, not sodium thioglycolate…?

[abierose]

@DaveStone I was thinking more along the lines of the perm changing/damaging the structure of the hair follicle…

[abierose]

Would older (30 years ago) home perm kits have any of the aforementioned chemicals and if so, is it possible those chemicals could permanently alter the way ones hair grows? My hair was as straight as straight could be up until I was about 11 years old when a family “friend” permed my hair and since then my hair is wavy…and yes, I remember the smell…yuck! ????

[abierose]

Perry said:

Thanks! @abierose - There is a Vanilla update due soon so perhaps while that is being updated I’ll make sure the search is updated for the mobile version.

Oh awesome! Thanks @Perry ????

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Awesome input.

????????

[abierose]

@Perry yes, you are 100% correct. Hence the last sentence in my post. Honestly, until I came here to this blog, I was under the impression that cosmetics had the ability to back up most of their claims without being labeled a drug. Now I know that it’s all a bunch of b.s. I have to believe that a lot of companies, albeit probably the smaller ones, really do believe their products can do things they cannot…like you said…“To successfully launch products in the beauty industry, you have to be willing to suspend your disbelief and embrace a plausible story.  Basically, you need to believe your own BS.”

Unfortunately my thirst for truth through science has worked against me in my venture into this industry. Once one is enlightened to the truth, it’s not something you can ignore and so believing your own marketing story isn’t really an option anymore…unless your product only uses effective ingredients and you don’t make a bunch of false claims about what your product is capable of doing…and like you said before, consumers generally want to believe the fluff and hype. ????‍♀️ 

[abierose]

catanasio said:

Graillotion said:

You never mention pH?
If want a chemist answer…you have to give all the pieces to the puzzle.
Typically a formula like that…will need the pH lowered.  If you purchase an acid to do that….choose lactic.  

Oh…and ‘heat and hold’?  Just smiling.

@Graillotion Quick question on Lactic Acid, do you know there are different labeling requirements when you use lactic acid to control the pH? Someone told me it’s considered an AHA which require some disclosures. I’m sure I can just check the FDA website but it can be so difficult to find what you need. thank you again!

This page should answer your question: 

https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/guidance-industry-labeling-cosmetics-containing-alpha-hydroxy-acids

Basically the FDA recommends but does not require certain cosmetics to include a “sunburn alert…” statement on their label if they contain an AHA an the AHA is not an incidental ingredient. The link above will explain it in much more detail.

[abierose]

Graillotion said:

Pharma said:

Graillotion said:

…and seeing L-Proline and several natural sources of palmitic acid….and wondering…have I accidently back doored (or been carefully steered) my way into something very similar to pseudo ceramides?…

If you found a back door which nobody noticed until now, you certainly get rich 

Hey you have to let the dreamers dream.  If we just all keep our heads down and accept the status quo… Well we have a stagnant industry.  I came from an industry that was so heavily regulated…it was nearly impossible to develop new products.  It was only the dreamers…searching out the synergies of existing materials…that created anything new.  (And sometimes a lower IQ helped…because they could not grasp the perceived limitations  )

I gotta second this though process. We have to believe we’ll be able to make something monumental and life changing otherwise we’re just trying to make a buck and that’s just not good enough. I too want to believe that if I happen to formulate the right ingredients at the right percentages that maybe, just MAYBE, I’ll stumble upon something really awesome that I can believe in and can share.

…Then the cynical side of me emerges and reminds me that ignorance may be bliss but in this day and age, ignorance is a choice and my dreamer side has to fight for some balance ????

[abierose]

Microformulation said:

42. The answer is 42.

????????????

[abierose]

DaveStone said:

Graillotion said:

Were you looking to buy that….or make it?

As far as I can tell…it would be lacking in things that would make it feel nice…texturizers.  Kinda a mommy blogger formula…with lots of unproven additives.

Based on some of the choices they made….I would not trust it to touch my skin….and probably why I make all my own stuff.

No, my wife was interested in it. She looks at all the natural/organic skincare sites. I told her I wanted more info on it…see if it’s not all puffery. It would be too complicated for me to make anyhow, lol. I prefer something condensed. She definitely thinks more is better.

Unfortunately it is mostly, if not all, puffery.

[abierose]

MarkBroussard said:

LOL! … when in doubt, add more ingredients! … Looks like a hot mess of a formula to me.

That’s exactly what I was thinking!

[abierose]

The only thing I would buy from Brambleberry is their fragrances.

I get different ingredients from both MC and LC…the former is usually a tad more expensive and shipping tends to take longer.

I prefer the packaging and quality from MC over LC generally. 

[abierose]

DaveStone said:

abierose said:

Propendiol is preferred over sodium lactate when formulating with polymeric emulsifiers that are sensitive to electrolytes. I usually use both Glycerin and Propendiol

Would one work better in a formula rather than standalone (diluted of course)? Glycerin is too sticky for me to use by itself, even when diluted. Does Propanediol, if used conjunction with glycerine, alter the skin feel?

Well, that’s definitely a matter of preference ???? I don’t like my products to be sticky either so I keep the amount of glycerin low..like below 2-3%…and then I’ll usually match that amount with propendiol. 

[abierose]

Propendiol is preferred over sodium lactate when formulating with polymeric emulsifiers that are sensitive to electrolytes. I usually use both Glycerin and Propendiol

[abierose]

I’m going to assume you mean your budget is $150 an hour, correct? 

[abierose]

Are you sure those percentage amounts are correct…? Looks like it adds up to over %100…

[abierose]

@Graillotion I came across this blue mica that is supposedly natural…

https://www.rusticescentuals.com/products/Deep-Ocean-Blue-Mica.aspx

I don’t know if you’re opposed to micas or not but some are considered natural while others aren’t…

[abierose]

helenhelen said:

RedCoast said:

I intended to reply earlier, but life caught up with me. xD

Keep in mind that highly pigmented oils don’t necessarily pigment the skin if you dilute it enough and add the right polymers if needed… we only apply lotions thinly enough anyway (at least, I hope so!) and our skin does have color, so it would usually  “disappear”. I’m fairly pale (Fitzpatrick II) and I noticed a slight orange coloration on my face at 10% concentration.

RedCoast said:

abierose said:

Would adding Lauryl Laurate help counteract that yellow color? It tends to make things ultra white…????‍♀️

I used myristyl myristate at the time, and it did “whiten” it a bit… I didn’t experiment with the coloration too much, because I liked the orange/golden color! Montanov L could help if the orange bothers you too much.

If you happen to get a “super pigmented” batch of sea buckthorn oil, you will likely needreduce the percentage or change up your other ingredients a bit.

It’s not so much the colouration of the skin, but more the colour of the emulsion - it just looks so much more “refreshing” when it’s off-white!

I tend to agree, particularly when we’re talking face creams/lotions…I think in general consumers prefer a white or off white product for face but body lotions can go either way…in fact, as a consumer…with a marketing background…who now makes skincare products (????) I think you can pretty much get away with any color imaginable if you scent it appropriately and in a way that “matches” that color….for example, a body lotion that was orange would be better received by consumers if it is scented with an orange fragrance…or peach fragrance….as opposed to just being an unscented lotion that is the color orange…
Anyway, I’m sure none of this is a new concept, but maybe worth mentioning ????

[abierose]

chemicalmatt said:

Cationics work best with hair conditioning no matter where that hair is found. The combo of behenetrmonium chloride emulsifying dimethicone 350 cst is the workhorse.  Add Polyquaternium-10 and lactic acid-neutralized stearamidopropyl dimethylamine and you have a top-shelf product. This is all based on cost considerations. If money is no object then we’d need a lot more space here: like 60 pages more.

I’ve been meaning to ask you more about this…so say cost is not an issue…what other ingredients would you recommend for making a conditioning beard balm…? Also do you prefer btmc over btms..? Thanks in advance!

[abierose]

helenhelen said:

@Pharma @Graillotion Thanks both. I have been avoiding nut products, which is why I haven’t already used macadamia nut oil despite its palmitoleic acid content… I am always tempted but then I am worried I will love it and not be able to add it in the final product. Apparently Phytosteryl Macadamiate (which I have tried) has 20% palmitoleic acid as well… but I’ve never got it to not feel heavy in a cream.

I am using avocado oil at the moment for the palmitoleic acid.. and it’s fine but sea buckthorn oil has a much nicer, more neutral afterfeel instead of the slightly oilier afterfeel of avocado oil.

@RedCoast I haven’t actually tried the sea buckthorn oil in an emulsion yet - I can tell even 1% will make it yellow! I should try it though…

Would adding Lauryl Laurate help counteract that yellow color? It tends to make things ultra white…????‍♀️