Abdullah
Forum Replies Created
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ngarayeva001 said:Butylene Glycol is more versatile because it can be used as a solvent and less tacky than glycerin. It also a preservative booster. Sodium Lactate has a downside of being a strong electrolyte, so acrylic acid based polymeric thickeners and emulsifiers aren’t an option.Thanks
As i don’t use any ingredient thas is not soluble in water or oil i may not need solvent for now. Maybe in the future. -
In India you don’t have to write the full list of ingredients on label. Most of the companies don’t do. Those who do will also write the fancy names only. For example in a Shampoo label they would write aloe Vera extract, vitamin e and shampoo base. That’s it.
You would never know what is in it. So don’t waist your time trying to find it out.
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jemolian said:Butylene glycol for short term hydration is also less than glycerin. Isn’t it?
Yes, so normally for a higher short term humectancy, the combination can be used, but if your humidity is average of 52%, then butylene glycol won’t really make sense. You can take a look at the reference below, which is the normal table when you search for “humectant humidity” on google.
In terms of the 50+% humidity range, you can consider about 3% to 5% of glycerin. In my test, in an air conditioned room, at about 50% humidity, 2% glycerin USP isn’t that tacky.
Regarding the pH, it depends on your overall formulation, but there’s no issues with pH being at 4.5 - 5.5 to be honest. My preference is pH 5 - 5.5.
In this paper, The role of epidermal lipids in cutaneous permeability
barrier homeostasis:For example, the activities of both b-glucocerebrosidase and acidic sphingomyelinase are optimal at or below pH 5.5, which is very similar to the pH of the stratum corneum. Conversely, many of the proteases in the stratum corneum have a pH optimum of 7 or higher;
therefore, their activities are decreased at the usual stratum
corneum pH of 5.5. If the pH of the stratum corneum is
increased, the activities of b-glucocerebrosidase and acidic
sphingomyelinase are reduced and the extracellular processing of glucosylceramides and sphingomyelins to ceramides
is impaired, leading to abnormalities in the structure of the
extracellular lipid membranes and decreased permeability
barrier function (4, 41–43). Furthermore, increases in stratum corneum pH stimulate protease activity, resulting in increased corneocyte desquamation (4, 41, 42).Though, ultimately it’s up to you and your formulations requirements really.
Very helpful information.
Thanks
This chart, is this just this picture or you have the complete file? -
Graillotion said:I am a poor resource for you…because I do not factor cost when I formulate… I only chase performance and texture.
First…. I am crazy for fast breaking, wet feeling products that dry quickly with a cooling sensation, and feel as close to weightless as possible. Creams with a gel undertone. I expect them to feel like products one might have tried that cost $200+. So pentylene glycol brings an incredible ‘wet’ feel when added to a formula (more so than other glycols I have tried). So automatically a ‘yes’ for me. Compound this with other well known fast breaking components…and you can begin to imagine. However, I also use Pentylene G as part of a larger preservative program, as jemolian mentioned. I also use the afore mentioned 1,2-Hexanediol plus caprylyl glycol in everything I make. I think pharma has an affinity for the glycols…and has really pushed me down that path (so I use use several in each project)…hehehe.
I think the point Jemolian makes about how humectants perform at different humidities…. is often overlooked. I produce products in a rain forest…. So I need them to be comfortable here…as well as in a dry climate. Based on feedback from personal and testers from around the globe, I have for the most part, hit the target I sought. I don’t think that could have been achieved with a single humectant. That being said….if you are selling into a single climate….than one could hypothetically test the humectants against the climate, and make a match.
I am not a huge fan/follower/believer in HA…but I use it in absolutely everything. Partly for claim…and partly…when I take it out….I notice it. I use a magical blend of wet and dry silicones….and I am suspecting a synergy in this area with HA. The moisturizing aspects of some of my projects….are greater than the sum of the parts.
I do not use BG or Propylene glycol…probably more for consumer perception than any other reason. When I was evaluating PG against Propanediol… in my climate Propanediol clearly out performed it. This again….results will vary with climate and other factors. When I tested both BG and PG….they never really stood out in a formula….like Pentylene glycol…..that one will make you sit up and pay attention. Sidebar…. lots of glycols…can cause issues in emulsions….so better be using something pretty stout with them. I am typically starting with a core of 165, and flavoring it with a Montanov + GSC or a cationic (w/o GSC).
I guess my final point on humectants would be…. who cares…if you don’t support them with stellar barrier function. They’re all short lived…if you don’t lock them in and down.
I break every project into the functional aspects….and build the supporting cast for each aspect, otherwise all is for naught.
Thanks a lot.
Appreciated
I am on the side of budget friendly products.
I like dry and powdery felling for my products. I use Polyglyceryl 6 distearate which has good powdery feel in non-ionic emulsifiers and pair it with Glyceryl stearate.Pentylene glycol, caprylyl Glycol, 1,2-Hexanediol all are very expensive.
Can i ask at what percentage do you use them in a moisturizer and how much does a moisturizer cost you per kg and how much you sell it?I use phenoxyethanol and Piroctone Olamine.
The average annual percentage of humidity is: 52.0% where most of my customers are. How is glycerin for such climate?
I am recently very fun of low pH leave on products. pH 4-4.5. my customers like the same formulas more than at pH 5-5.5. i even sometimes think why are not everyone making products at pH 4.5 instead of 5.5.
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Pattsi said:Performance wise Glycerin is the gold standard, Diglycerin is stickier and more expensive so you might not need it.
If your product has a huge end price margin sure you can use any humectant combo you like, but if not I would say glycerin alone would be enough.Thanks for information about diglycerin.
The profit margin is not so high. That is why i am avoiding expensive ingredients like HA. -
jemolian said:If you have to stick to one, then glycerin would be fine. Depending on the what you are trying to achieve and the suitability of the formulation, the choice can really be different.
For example, butylene glycol can make sense if you are intending to give a short term / up front impression that your product is very hydrating but mainly the long term hydrating function is sustained by glycerin. This would deal more with the customer’s perception.
Alternatively, other humectants like sodium lactate would likely be a good choice but if your formulation is not electrolyte sensitive. Assuming that you are cost saving, then it may not work out since you likely will use carbomer as part of the formulation for stability purposes.
The main issue with just using glycerin would be that it can be quite tacky depending on the percentage used and the humidity your intended users are at. In a high humidity climate, you don’t need that much glycerin, but at lower humidity, you can consider adding more. So a mixture of humectants can be used to create different skin feels as required.
Butylene glycol for short term hydration is also less than glycerin. Isn’t it?
Sodium lactate looks like a good option.
I use xanthan and in near future will also add acacia gum to it. They both are not electrolyte sensitive.
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jemolian said:@Abdullah it depends on multiple factors really. If you don’t mind the natural/synthetic status, then the normal combination of butylene glycol + glycerin is fine enough in most cases, unless you want to use something more fanciful for specific purposes such as “natural derived” (eg, with propanediol or pentylene glycol), co-emulsification (eg, with pentylene glycol).
From what i’ve seen, butylene glycol normally boosts the humectancy profile for the first 1 to 2 hours, which is similar to the Figure above. Good thing about the glycols, they would help boost preservation to a certain extent.
Though just to mention, there’s also 1,2-Hexanediol.
I haven’t used butylene glycol but according to this chart it is much less effective humectant compared to glycerin. Combining them also doesn’t make much difference but if i stick to only one of them for now i can save some money by purchasing in high quality. You know business is all about cutting the cost.
Fancy names and claims aren’t important to me.
The first thing important is how strong humectant it is.
If two products are the same or very small difference then what are the extra functions that they do? -
I have too opinions about nature.
1. If natural mean from the earth then everything is natural because everyone is from the earth and within the earth. We are just playing with natural things by mixing them or unmixig them.
2. If natural mean the way the thing are in nature then milk is natural, crude oil is natural, poison is natural.
Yogurt is not natural, pizza is not natural, any cosmetic product is not natural.
Non of these exist in nature the way they are. All are made by people.You can claim any cosmetic product completely natural or you can’t claim any of them natural.
Tell me why i am wrong.
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As @abierose said chelating agent doesn’t look necessary because cationic emulsion is less likely to be contaminated by microbes than anionic and non-ionic emulsions.
By the way what is your preservative and pH?I like how BTMS feels on skin. For moisturization, i suggest remove pg7 and may be protein, panthenol and extract if you don’t know the details of your extract. Increase sodium lactate to %5, Reduce avocado oil to %5-10 and add % 10-20 glycerin.
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jemolian said:It’s better to do a combination since they have been shown to work better combined.
Here’s a screenshot from one of the test for a comparison done to compare individually.
Link from my dropbox (since i can’t find the PDF online strangely, please save if require in case i move it) ->
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4r009ugoq0k077a/Moisturizing%20Effects%20of%20Diglycerol%20combined%20with%20glycerol.pdf?dl=0
That is interesting.
Glycerin is about 5 times better humectant compared to butylene glycol according to this study.As i purchase the humectant (glycerin) in bulk quantity 50kgs each time to reduce the cost, if i purchase three humectant that would need high investment for humectants and the result is also not much better compared to 1 humectant alone so i will stick to use only one humectant.
I am looking for best performing humectant. Any suggestions?
Performance is important. Consumer appeal isn’t important. -
Graillotion said:I do not have the chemistry background to answer your question…but I will toss this out there.
Typically (not always) BG will be less sticky. So some formulators will split the formula, as they feel things get too tacky with just glycerin. However…as many of you know…I’ll buy the same ingredient from multiple suppliers …. just to compare. I did this with BG (when I was using it….no long am)…. and when one of the repackers offered a non-petrol based version…I jumped all over it….and you guessed it….more gross than glycerin!
I use glycerin at low levels…but love to support it with propanediol, betaine, and my all time fav….pentylene glycol. (I call that one…my secret weapon.)
That is interesting.
What about petrol based butylene glycol?And how does butylene glycol compare to propylene glycol?
What is so spacial about Pentylene glycol that you like as it is expensive too?
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Graillotion said:Abdullah said:Graillotion said:Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
Thanks
What did you add next and next untel cationic?I put the Varisoft EQ 65 in the oil phase, so the GLDA and Varisoft do not meet until emulsification.
The formula is now working magically…I am on version #16.
So Keep in mind…this formula is still primarily 165 @ 3%, and Varisoft EQ 65 at 2%.
Since my GLDA is liquid, it is only 50% active…therefore at my inclusion rate of .1%…it is more like .05%.
Pharma suggested (and was right as usual) that SepiGel 305 would work in this scenario, (I believe) due to the lower rate of the Varisoft EQ 65….and the inclusion post emulsion. The different anionic gelling agents have varying levels of how they will interact with cationics, and it was his belief that 305 was one of the better possible candidates, based on it’s constituents.
Thanks
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I also thank all the people who teach us good information and share there knowledge with us
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@MarkBroussard Thanks
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Graillotion said:abierose said:@Abdullah if it isn’t compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here’s a few I found via a Google search:https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/
If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible ????♀️
You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.
And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy…. They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label….so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group. Or….and more probable….clueless. One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.
Per an earlier thread of mine….some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics. Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate. I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.
Oh…and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
Yes. 3 thing can be.
1. They know these are incomparable. They make a product that has some good performance. They include very tiny amount %0.0001 or less of these incomparable ingredient just to add the name on label to mislead the companies that like their product and try to make the same thing.
2. They don’t know they are incomparable. In order to see an incompatibility between two ingredients you have to use just those two and see what happens when they are in liquid form.most don’t waste the raw material by checking compatibility of each 2 ingredients like This. If you use BTMS with a chelating agent you won’t notice the incompatibility because it has fatty alcohol and directly increase the viscosity. So you would not see how the surfactant reacts with chelating agent. You wouldn’t know if the chelating agent is working or not. You wouldn’t know if all of surfactant is working or some of them has been inactivated. But if you use a standalone surfactant like SPDMA, you can see that it completely dissolve in water but if there is chelating agent in water they form insoluble salt on top of the water that can not be dissolved in water. That is how you know something is not working.
3. They know how to use these two together and other companies and chemists don’t know. -
@MarkBroussard The usage rate of this BASF SA+ acacia gum is up to %3 and SA is up to %2. So if i use %2 SA with %1 acacia gum, would it be the same as this product from BASF?
I mean in solubility. -
@MarkBroussard what about exfoliation powder?
Would there be any difference in exfoliation powder of dissolving SA in these two ways if the final pH is 4 in both ways?
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@abierose i don’t know how they are doing it.
When I use chelating agents even citric acid with cationic surfactants they form insoluble salt. That effects the finall feeling of product. Surfactant also doesn’t work properly and maybe chelating agent too. -
@jemolian sodium phytate is not compatible with cationic surfactants.
Do you know any chelating agent other than caprylhydroxamic acid which is not anionic?
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@chemicalmatt @MarkBroussard thanks.
I am using it in a leave on product. The method is i add salicylic acid to water, add 0.29g sodium hydroxide for each gram of salicylic acid to dissolve it. When dissolved then bring the pH down to 4 with citric acid. Would dissolving salicylic acid this way be equal effective as if i dissolve it with butylene glycol and adjust the pH to 4?
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Use it with another Preservative.
At that pH you may use it with Ethylhexylglycerin or caprylyl Glycol or Paraben or caprylhydroxamic acid.
I don’t know other preservatives that can be combined with phenoxyethanol and effective at high pH. -
Tea tree oil at that amount is not the problem.
The problem is the Product is contaminated because the weather is hot and this product doesn’t have preservative.
Increase the phenoxyethanol to %1 and see if the problem is solved.
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Allantoin is also soluble in surfactants. I am using it in lotion @ %0.5 without any problem. For system that doesn’t have surfactant and the solubility would be less than %0.5.
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@Paprik may i ask why pH 5.5 is more skin friendly while pH of skin itself is 4.7?
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Use phenoxyethanol.