[Abdullah]

1. 1-4% means you can use whatever amount you like in this range. 
I like 1% because my hair is oily and heavy. You may like more. 

2. It may be true. But does more mean better?
Not always.

3. Yes you can

@Camel that is a very good chart. Can you share the source. 

[Abdullah]

Yes adding anionic surfactant helps stability. Also adding fatty alcohol and increasing solagum ax to ~5% helps.

Chelating agents should be added to water at first.

Montanov is more susceptible to microbes and this preservative is also not very effective. I prefer phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoin over benzyl alcohol and paraben or IPBC for fungi. 

[Abdullah]

@Perry thanks
I am using SLS powder and that would need 4% citric acid to adjust pH to 5. 
SLS liquid will increase the cost too much because liquid and powder is the same price.

Is there any other method? 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

@Abdullah, I have 350 and Dimethicone fluid, which is 10 cps. 

Thanks.

I use 5 cps

As a general comparison, what percentage of 350 cps will have the same anti soaping and spreading enhancement effect as 0.3% 5-10 cpt in lotion? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis hi 

Should i sanitize the filling machine too or not necessary? 

[Abdullah]

I usually use it in lotion but want to add it in facewash too. 

In lotion it is hot process.

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

@ketchito, yes I did. 
Yesterday I tried your method, adding HEC before anything else. I mixed til properly suspended and add a few drops of Sodium Hydroxide. To pH around 8 - 9. Waited until it cleared and thick gel formed (10 - 15 mins I think). Mix for couple more minutes and add my surfactant blend. Mixed til homogenous, mixed a bit more and adjusted the pH to 5.5 - 6.0. 

This morning (half an hour ago ) I went to my lab and … that damned separated layer was there.

I’m starting to think the HEC won’t be compatible with this load of surfactants maybe. I have Methocel, but wasn’t playing with it yet. Only ones and it didn’t go into the water easily like HEC, so I kind of gave up on it Guess big mistake. 

If by methocel you mean HPMC, it is very easy.
Just add it to small amount of hot water and mix,then add this hot water to cold water while mixing 

[Abdullah]

Agree with @ozgirl + Varisoft 65 and 100 is not as effective conditioner as commonly used BTMC or less expensive SPDMA. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

Abdullah said:

@Paprik i mix dimethicone with oil phase, heat to 60-70°c and make the emulsion. 

Is it necessary to add dimethicone below 50°c? 

How do you add it? I mean when emulsion is made you reduce the temperature and add dimethicone, then do you homogenize again? 

I actually thought it should be in the oil phase too, but when I checked some suppliers data, they recommend add that below 50°C. So I do it. 

I usually add 1 - 2% only, so I add that with my heat sensitive ingredients in the cool down phase under low shear. 

I should try that too.

What viscosity do you use?

[Abdullah]

Bo77 said:

Grapefruit22- I understand your point. I’m for education. I stand for awareness, absolutely. Except…. so many people don’t educate themselves, they just repeat what quick google search throws at them. There has to be some line people should not cross. I agree with Perry, big companies are scrutinized more than small ones. I don’t necessary trust big companies marketing but safety? I do trust more than small companies. I’m all for small companies but when I check the safety of some small businesses, I question some decisions. I’m small business but I have to be honest, not all small companies are equal. For one big company screw up, many more small ones are up there. Except we don’t hear about that so much… 

If you you add some phenoxyethanol or sodium benzoate in claim level and when someone asked what is your preservative, tell them phenoxyethanol or sodium benzoate or whatever beautiful name preservative is my preservative. I bet no one will think that something with a good looking name like glycinate is FR or even a preservative.

[Abdullah]

@Paprik i mix dimethicone with oil phase, heat to 60-70°c and make the emulsion. 

Is it necessary to add dimethicone below 50°c? 

How do you add it? I mean when emulsion is made you reduce the temperature and add dimethicone, then do you homogenize again? 

[Abdullah]

Is 0.6% phenoxyethanol enough as preservative?

[Abdullah]

Hopefully here we don’t have to write the list of all ingredients on label so we are protected from such people.

[Abdullah]

In my experience hec is not very compatible with glucosides.

it is not compatable with high amount of surfactants. I made 3% surfactant and it worked, 10% surfactant and it didn’t work so i didn’t use hec in shampoo after that. 

It cant give you that 5-10k cst viscosity in any amount. So HPMC is a much better option. Can give up to 200k cst viscosity, support high surfactants and is less expensive. Although this is also not very compatible with glucosides.

[Abdullah]

The clear cationic guar is about 4 times more expensive than regular.

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

Adding primary alcohol (such as glycerin), glyceryl ethers and amides could help. 

By amide do you mean cocamide DEA or MEA?

Can you name some glyceryl ethers?

How  and how much glycerin can stabilize foam?

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

More SLS

I am using 3:7 SLS: SLES. What ratio do you suggest? 
And should i suggest replacing some SLES with it or just adding more SLS?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis will these trips work for chlorine test? 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

and it is not “bad”

I mean it is bad if it was deposited in hair by polymers. Isn’t it?

If it doesn’t deposit then it is not bad as you say. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

CMIT aq solubility is much greater than those - I’d not worry

That is good.
Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Suggest 5 ppm for the CMIT/MIT product.  Might check stability - CMIT is unstable with ZPT, another hydoxamic acid-based active.   Not aware of data for piroctone.

Thanks for suggestion. 
I am currently using 3ppm CMIT MIT+100ppm formalin+ 1000ppm tetrasodium EDTA in cleansing products. 
I am not using zpt or Piroctone olamine is cleaning product.

My concern was if guar hptc deposits CMIT in hair too the same way as it deposits zpt and Piroctone olamine from Shampoo.
Any comments on this issue?

[Abdullah]

You can ether make a good product or bad product. You make good product by using ingredients that other good products use.

 Have you seen a good product that doesn’t use broad spectrum preservative?

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt thanks. 
I was also looking for an alternative to glucosides as non-ionic surfactant for shampoo other than DEA and MEA. 
Looks like i should try amine oxide.

This surfactants ratio is also interesting. I have always used high amount of anionics compared to others. At max 1 part non-ionic+ amphoteric combined to 3 parts anionic. I should try this too. 

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

I do not think CMIT/MIT will deposit, especially at 10ppm. Polyquats must form coacervates with the surfactants and those coacervates must bring with them only whatever they can associate with, dimethicone being the most dependable.  

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Yes 10ppm is very small amount but my concern was this

Anti dandruff ingredient like Piroctone olamine for example is used up to 1% with a polymer in shampoo and 0.1-0.3% in a leave on product. So it looks like from this 1% in shampoo at least 0.1-0.3% is deposited with the help of polymer.

Now if we consider 10ppm CMIT instead of 1% Piroctone olamine, if 1-3 ppm CMIT gets deposited, it would not be a good thing because we don’t want any amount of that. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

That helps a bit - but still try <1% - highest I use is 0.5% and down to 0.3% can be useful.

Thanks. I have made sample with 0.5% too and the smell problem was solved compared to 1%. I just wanted an expert to confirm if that amount is ok. 
Thanks