[Abdullah]

@Perrydo you mean applying glycerin without water makes skin warm? 

[Abdullah]

MariaGarcia said:

I never stop learning on this forum. What is the benefit of adding cationic substances to skin products? I was convinced that they were only used in hair products to combat frizz.

Come people likes the way they feel

[Abdullah]

Cafe33 said:

Are you open to changing your surfactant system? 

Also, Polyquat-39 can be an impressive addition in my experience. 

Yes i am always willing to change and improve.

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Usually, you don’t use a high quat load in skin products (yes, catonic surfactants are more irritating in leave on products, specially when applied on the skin), but a bit of Guar HPTC won’t hurt (usually, you feel a velvety dry fealing when skin is dry). Also, for skin cleansers I’d prefer a non-charged silicone (like Dimethicone). 

Thanks
Any preference about viscosity of dimethicone for skin?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah If the surfactant is affected by hard water, the loss in foam correlates with decreased solubility and hence, interfacial activity (and detergency).

Thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

zetein said:

It has to be higher than 7 and a couple of buffers are needed.

But why not just buy a bottle of calamine lotion？

At what pH is calamine stable?

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

I am not sure at this input (1%), but zinc oxide self regulates to pH of around 7 (in SPF or balms products)

I guess you get a slight skin protective benefits as it covers the skin a bit, but I would not rely on it. 

Yes for SPF it should be around pH 7. But does it need to be at pH 7 for skin protection too? 

[Abdullah]

evchem2 said:

What phase are you adding the zinc oxide to- water or oil?  below pH 6 zinc oxide will start dissolving and you will have Zn ions in solution or new complexes which causes some formulation instability

I can use it in both phases. I just wanted that skin protection effect of it.

[Abdullah]

Dont waste your money by adding parabens in shampoo.

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah There are actually many patents issued by P&G around the same SH backbone, with few changes. Try using Google patents, and write:  procter shampoo lamellar. You’ll see many entries.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

@ketchito Is that patented by p&g? 

If yes, do you know which patent it is so i can have a look. 

[Abdullah]

Add some gum Arabic

[Abdullah]

 Are you saying that the GMS SE and cetyl alcohol may be reducing the viscosity of this one emulsifier, but not the others?

Maybe. If you make a batch with only 202 then you can say for sure what was the problem. 

In LGNs only a specific ratio of surfactants give high viscosity as shown here. 

[Abdullah]

Perry said:

I mean that whenever you change any aspect of the composition of a surfactant system (e.g. concentration, surfactant type, etc), the viscosity response to salt addition will change.

Got it
Thanks

[Abdullah]

@Perry you mean if a formula has only 10% SLES and another formula has only 5% SLES, salt response will be different between these two formulas? 

[Abdullah]

Maybe you are using too much GMO or too little surfactants. 

It is liquid and it doesn’t need heating to mix with surfactants

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah You should feel a difference with a Guar HPTC formula…maybe you need to increase the level. Also, you could add some silicone (same principle as in hair).

I definitely see a difference in foam but I can’t notice any difference on my skin. 

What type of effect should i look for in guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride in skin cleanser?

For hair i am using Amodimethicone. 
I have experienced that if i used Amodimethicone too much or in wrong way in shampoo, it irritates the scalp. Is it safe to use Amodimethicone in skin products?

[Abdullah]

MariaGarcia said:

I’m just a student and maybe I’m talking nonsense, but I think that the needs and therefore the conditioning mechanisms are not the same for hair or skin, so there are no exact analogs. I understand that hair conditioning depends more on aspects such as pH, ionic charge (and that is why cationic substances are used) or the closing of the cuticle. In a shampoo I understand that the type of surfactants used also makes a big difference (I don’t have much experience but I have achieved results that I really like using a combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants). I would also add some refatting agent, and some active ingredient (I personally love the effect of inulin).

In the case of skin, I believe that conditioning depends on maintaining and reinforcing the barrier function of the skin so it is important that the mixture of surfactants is effective but gentle (and in lower imputs than in shampoos), and at least, a refatting agent and a moisturizer should be incorporated, or even an very small imput of a lipid. It doesn’t make sense to me to use a cationic ingredient in a face or body wash.

I find that anyway it is not a single product that achieves the result, but the proper combination and proportion of all of them.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

What is your formula, method and what problem are you facing?

[Abdullah]

What is your pH? 
Is that 0.02% xanthan gum? 

I would say use 0.2-0.3% xanthan gum.

Also ratio of surfactants have big impact on viscosity. As you dont know the composition of m 202, why don’t you make a batch with only 202 and remove GMS SE & fatty alcohol?

I am sure the ratio in 202 is optimized to give high viscosity. 

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

A: Montanov 202 and glyceryl stearate SE have a higher melting/processing temperature than the other ones (~10°C higher). Generally, 70°C is on the lower end for all of them. Try 80°C.

B: Montanov 202 is also different insofar as it can handle higher amounts of oils or rather is meant to be used with considerably higher oil phases.

C: The four emulsifiers all result in lamellar gel networks rather than micellar emulsions; hence, they may not take too high too long shear mixing (especially under the ‘gelling’ temperature) very well.

D : Because of point C, all these emulsions will ‘ripen/harden’ over the next few hours to days. Give them some time to fully attain their final viscosity. Cooling rate can also be part of the difference (M 202, because of point A, doesn’t do well when cooled too fast and can’t ripen in the worst case).

Is gelling temperature below 50°c temperature?

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah Indeed, total free surfactant below CMC wouldn’t necessary be the sum of each free surfactant, measured separately.

That is good to know.
Thanks

[Abdullah]

@grapefruit22 Pantene shampoo that i purchased from UAE had better conditioning effect when hair was wet & dry compared to my shampoos. 
Maybe it is how different do dimethicone and Amodimethicone feel from Shampoo. I use Amodimethicone and Pantene had dimethicone.

My shampoos are better than almost every local shampoo that i have tested. 

[Abdullah]

If you want, I could show you how to check things like this on CosIng .. EU database SUSMP for AUS is a bit tricky to use, but also handy. 

Sure i want

I sometimes wonder why are they not specifying some limits but they are there.

For example dimethicone is OTC skin protector. They don’t say which viscosity so that should mean any viscosity is. But in reality viscosity ≥350 is skin protector, not lower.

Same for SLES, from experience during manufacturing our products, i know that 70% SLES, can be damaging the skin. 

[Abdullah]

Paprik said:

As there are no regulatory limits (EU, AUS), I’d say 100%. I believe that is how they were testing the ingredients, neat on the rabbits ears and wait. Or submerge them into solution and wait. 

Thanks ????