[tecnico3vinia]

Bill_Toge said:

from my experience with mouthwashes, effective preservation can be achieved at lower levels of alcohol (10-15%) if the formula also contains cetyl pyridinium chloride or a similar cationic surfactant

Thank you, Bill!
Unfortunately we can’t use quats on natural formulations, since they are prohibited by certifications bodies, like Natrue and COSMOS-Standard.

[tecnico3vinia]

Perry said:

You need to always be skeptical of ingredient advice from companies that are trying to sell you ingredients. That isn’t to say that they are lying, but claims like “multifunctional” and “influence preservation” are vague things that don’t mean anything specific.

I’m very skeptical of those claims. Nowadays every company market their preservatives as ‘multifunctional’ and ‘broad spectrum’, which I doubt that is true (in most cases). 

[tecnico3vinia]

Syl said:

@tecnico3vinia, there was discussion on the subject recently.https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/8973/ethanol-as-a-broad-spectrum-preservative

Oh, great! Thank you, Syl. I’ll definitely read through it.

[tecnico3vinia]

Herbnerd said:

I’m currently developing products to Natrue standard. A number of compounds seem to influence preservation whilst not being on the approved preservative list under Annex 4 of the standard.

If you check out various suppliers - such as this one (and there are many more) they offer a number of other ‘multifunctionals’ that offer antimicrobials that are based on flavour compounds and other molecules. 

https://cosphatec.com/en/products/

Often you will get clues to what others are using from reading the labels.

Thank you!
I discovered these Cosphatec’s preservatives while I was doing some research days ago. I’ve found out that Alverde uses a lot of Levulinic Acid and Sodium Levulinate, which are also flavour/fragrance compounds. While I’m skeptical about these ‘multifunctional’ allegations, I really want to test them and see how (and if) they work. 

[tecnico3vinia]

PhilGeis said:

ethanol at 20%

Thank you for the heads up.
I wonder that at this concentration ethanol can maybe affect the viscosity of some systems, but I think I’ll have to try that out to see if it happens in my system. 

[tecnico3vinia]

evchem2 said:

Increasing viscosity can definitely help with suspension even if it just delays the amount of time before you see settling. You could also look to match density of your particulates to the liquid phase, or get even more in-depth and account for size of particulate and an ‘allowable’ rate of separation (the velocity) to figure out what viscosity you need your liquid to be (stokes law)

Thank you so much! 

[tecnico3vinia]

Abdullah said:

By using cationic surfactants like SPDMA and BAPDMA you feel that your hair volume has increased because it doesn’t weight down the hair like BTMS does. 
This was my experience 

Thank you Abdullah! I’ll say to my client to try out these ingredients and tell me what does she thinks of the results. 

[tecnico3vinia]

When I started out I was a maximalist, but now I’m definetely a minimalist. Less ingredients = less interactions between them; less components to cause reactions on consumers’ skin and also potentially lower costs with raw materials!

[tecnico3vinia]

Farrukh said:

I want to make non greasy cream

But my cream texture is creamy not non greasy

I strongly suggest that you use silicones. They are always the best options to achieve a good skin feel and nice sensory properties in cosmetic formulas. The best options on this case would be fluid cyclomethicone (cyclopentasiloxane), elastomers and maybe dimethicone. Also, you could use some powdered sensory modifier to achive that non greasy skin feel, like Tapioca Pure and Dry Flo Pure by Nouryon. 

[tecnico3vinia]

There some solubilizers that I use in surfactant systems:
- PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil;
- Olivem 300 by Hallstars;
- Polysorbates.

Also, you could try to use some of your surfactants to solubilize the oily components. Separate an amount of the surfactants (I suggest that you use, at least, a 3:1 ratio - surfactants:oil), add the oily components in it, gently mix and the add in the system. Other thing that I noticed is that sometimes the oils:surfactant solution has to be added really slowly, almost drop by drop when in a lab-setting (small batch).

Hope that helps!

[tecnico3vinia]

Dimethicone will be suspended/dispersed in your emulsion. It doesn’t need to be ‘solubilized’. You can add it after adding the emulsifiers. Then (properly) mix the whole formualtion (the best option is using a stirrer with 700-1500 rpm). For small-scale-lab-batches (around 200 grams) you can mix for around 5 minutes after adding it. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Perry said:

Your best bet would be to contact the French Society of Cosmetic Chemists.

Thank you, Perry! I’ll get in touch with them. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Mayday said:

I can’t make specific recommendations, but if you’re formulating anything in contact with genitals, you should be aware that there are additional areas of concern that I’ve come across in my own reading.

Osmolarity. pH. Preservative systems hostile to microflora. Calcium chelation and danger to urothelium. Impact of ingredients on microflora, such as oils and sugars. Permeability of mucous membranes to some molecules.

Re: glycerin. I suspect it’s mostly due to popular low-cost extremely hyperosmolar lubes based around glycerin and propylene glycol.

Thank you! I’ll do my research on the topics that you pointed out. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Stanley said:

you want to be careful of the pH especially if it is for a biological female.  (HaHa)   :hushed:  

Stuff like massage oil you really don’t want on female parts.  You really shouldn’t have glycerin on female parts because it can cause yeast infections.  

Thank you for the heads up, Stanley. 

About the glycerin, that is really interesting! I’ll do more research on the topic to understand it better. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Microformulation said:

Be sure you read up about the Regulatory aspects since many lubricants require 501(k) clearance as a Class II Medical device in the US. I wouldn’t suggest “assuming it is compliant without doing your due diligence. (Again, I am citing US Regulatory issues).

Thank you! I’ll definitely read up on the Regulatory aspects here in the country that I live in.

[tecnico3vinia]

evchem2 said:

Pullulan is an excellent film former at higher use levels, but it’s pretty expensive especially compared to PVA

Oh, great! I’ll reach out to some distributors to see if they sell it here in the country that I live in and how much does it cost. Thank you for the heads up! 

[tecnico3vinia]

Happy birthday, Perry! Thank you for always willing to help other professionals with your knowledge and experience. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Dtdang said:

@tecnico3vinia!
would you please look at my ingredients above? Tell me what wrong ?
 Thanks in advance 

Hey! Unfortunately I can’t tell you what’s wrong. I actually never worked with Hotact. I’d suggest that you create a discussion with this issue, so more people can see it and maybe help you. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Adding some ‘refatting’ agent can be a option, like Cocamide DEA/MEA or a ethoxylated emollient. You have to find the optimum concentration where it don’t affect the cleaning efficacy. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Pattsi said:

evchem2 said:

Tangentially, you could also use methyl nicotinate. It is a rubefacient first so expect some reddening of the skin along with slight tingling. Also less is definitely more in this case, it doesn’t take much to produce decent effect.

In the name of marketing god and my curiosity, I sampled methyl nicotinate penis oil from India and methyl nicotinate vaginal gel from China on the back of my hands, my skin went red for hours and uncomfortably tingled.

Ouch! If I ever use it in some formulation I guess it’s better they’re not recommended for use in intimate areas. Many thanks, Pattsi. 

[tecnico3vinia]

evchem2 said:

Second the zeolite suggestion by chemical matt.

Tangentially, you could also use methyl nicotinate. It is a rubefacient first so expect some reddening of the skin along with slight tingling. Also less is definitely more in this case, it doesn’t take much to produce decent effect.

Methyl Nicotinate, interesting! I think we have it in our lab here. I will try to test it later. Thank you for the heads up. 

[tecnico3vinia]

chemicalmatt said:

I’d think you want sex to heat up not cool down. Any interest in using the Zeolites from Grace in an oil or silicone base? They warm up nicely when wetted.

That’s so interesting! I never would thought of zeolites for this application. I’ll check if they’re available in my country. Thank you, Matt. 

[tecnico3vinia]

Bill_Toge said:

vanillyl butyl ether is an effective warming agent, as is camphor

I will definitely try Vanillyl Butyl Ether out! Thank you. 

[tecnico3vinia]

WarrenChemist said:

depending on where specifically your products are meant to be used, capsaicin will provide a warming effect. There is also a material sold by Vantage “hotact” that I have found to be quite effective in a warming charcoal scrub I formulated years ago.

Thank you! 

[tecnico3vinia]

PhilGeis said:

Big cosmetic companies invest very significantly in their water systems - in no way would potable water standards satisfy their water quality specs.  With tools such as RO, DI, to ozonation and high heat their water systems are better than many pharma operations.

Thank you, Phil! In our lab we use a reverse osmosis and deionization system, but I’ll definitely check the ozonation and high heat methods.