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Use refined Cocoa butter instead - assume you are using unrefined? (A lot of folks love the smell - ie Chocolate) or choose different butter in your lotion. Bit hard to know if that is your only issue if we dont know full formula ingredients. Cheers

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@MarkBroussard - Thanks Mark for the great advice (as usual). I will look at buying some soon. So when I add the powder do I just add to Cooldown and mix thoroughly? Have a great day.

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Graillotion said:

Ummm…. fragrance is a matter of your beliefs.

Many generations…have used fragranced products for their lifetime…and not developed allergies.  Sounds like you are listening to fear mongers!  Is it possible….of course.

If you are selling….there is a small space to sell unscented products…and a VERY big space….to sell delightfully scented products.  Most consumers are not willing to admit it…but they buy what they buy….cus they like the scent.

Here is a link….if you want to buy the almost pure TECA…in small amounts:

Centella Asiatica Extract (TECA 95%) (myskinrecipes.com)

(It is a reputable site out of Thailand.)

I generally just buy a standarized extract powder…and make it myself.  It is many MANY times stronger than what you will buy from a crafter supplier.

Hi there - Can I ask with the stuff from myskinrecipes.com there are 2 products - One is the 95% TECA and the other is Madecassoside 90% = what is best to use in a face cream for instance and what %. Also it says with the TECA it is best solubilsed in their product called ULTRA Solve - is this necessary or do you dissolve in Water ok? Or would you just make your emulsion and then add in cooldown? Cheers

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Ha love the experiment So out of interest what was your oxidizing ‘key’ ingredient? And I’m not looking to sell it just for my partner - so even If I make him a small batch each time he goes bush - Or does it oxidize straight away? 

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Thanks @Graillotion - You made me look into further which I wouldn’t have otherwise and think I have come up with a better product because of your views. Cheers 

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Graillotion said:

Squinny said:

Graillotion said:

@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:

TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.

I would suggest…a 2-3% try.  Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.

Hi there @Graillotion - Interesting (sorry if I am hijacking this thread!) - I am also wanting to make an insect repellent and have come up with a formula that I have no idea if it will be any good for mozzies (but I like the small ha!). So mine is basically Water, Neem Oil, Coco Caprylate, and essential Oils - Citronella, Peppermint, Kunzea, Tea Tree + emulsifier Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100) Zepimax Zen, Preservative. I want the lotion to be quite think milk like. After reading this might at 1% TEC. What are your thoughts and do you have any special ingredient especially for mozzies? ( I know TEC isnt for mozzies!)  I just want to make for my partner who spends lots of time in wet tropics bushland - and lots of ticks and mozzies - and I dont want him using DEET anymore. Any advice is appreciated. Cheers

Yes…you need the TEC…as a solubilizer for the EO’s…and 1% was the rate I used.  Mix the TEC and the EO’s seperately…and then add that slurry post emulsion.

The problem with that concept….is it will only protect right in the neighborhood of 17 minutes.  After that point…all the volatile EO molecules will have jumped off….and the victim will be ripe for blood letting.  

It takes a TON more work….to get it to last a few hours.

Thanks so what is your secret ingredient that makes yours work beyond 17 mins? Is there a paper on this and haven’t heard of OE’s jumping off before. Also whenever I add EO’s in other lotions or Creams I haven’t used a solubilizer just added them in cooldown and mixed thoroughly in the emulsion. So is a solubilizer necessary? When I do products such as Room/Pillow Sprays with EO’s I use Polysorbate 20. Cheers looking forward to your views.

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Graillotion said:

@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:

TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.

I would suggest…a 2-3% try.  Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.

Hi there @Graillotion - Interesting (sorry if I am hijacking this thread!) - I am also wanting to make an insect repellent and have come up with a formula that I have no idea if it will be any good for mozzies (but I like the small ha!). So mine is basically Water, Neem Oil, Coco Caprylate, and essential Oils - Citronella, Peppermint, Kunzea, Tea Tree + emulsifier Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100) Zepimax Zen, Preservative. I want the lotion to be quite think milk like. After reading this might at 1% TEC. What are your thoughts and do you have any special ingredient especially for mozzies? ( I know TEC isnt for mozzies!)  I just want to make for my partner who spends lots of time in wet tropics bushland - and lots of ticks and mozzies - and I dont want him using DEET anymore. Any advice is appreciated. Cheers

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Hi Maybe look up ingredients of some of the nice brands like Clarins? I recently got a sample and it doesn’t irritate my eyes - I hadn’t used any for years because of that reason - This is their volume one - Supra Volume Mascara | CLARINS®
AQUA/WATER/EAU, SYNTHETIC BEESWAX, PARAFFIN, ACACIA SENEGAL GUM, BUTYLENE GLYCOL, GLYCERYL STEARATE, STEARIC ACID, PALMITIC ACID, GLYCERIN, VP/EICOSENE COPOLYMER, VP/HEXADECENE COPOLYMER, COPERNICIA CERIFERA CERA/COPERNICIA CERIFERA (CARNAUBA) WAX/CIRE DE CARNAUBA, AMINOMETHYL PROPANEDIOL, ORYZA SATIVA (RICE) BRAN WAX, PANTHENOL, ACACIA FARNESIANA FLOWER WAX, DIMETHICONE, PHENETHYL ALCOHOL, OCTYLDODECANOL, ETHYLHEXYLGLYCERIN, SPHINGANINE, HYDROXYETHYLCELLULOSE, CELLULOSE, PVP, PHENOXYETHANOL, DISODIUM PHOSPHATE, POLYSORBATE 60, SODIUM PHOSPHATE, BIOTINOYL TRIPEPTIDE-1

Another of there’s is
AQUA/WATER/EAU. CI 77499/IRON OXIDES. SYNTHETIC BEESWAX. ACRYLATES/ETHYLHEXYL ACRYLATE COPOLYMER. PARAFFIN. GLYCERYL STEARATE. STEARIC ACID. COPERNICIA CERIFERA CERA/COPERNICIA CERIFERA (CARNAUBA) WAX/CIRE DE CARNAUBA. ORYZA SATIVA (RICE) BRAN WAX. PVP. AMINOMETHYL PROPANEDIOL. BUTYLENE GLYCOL. SORBITAN SESQUIOLEATE. PHENOXYETHANOL. CERA MICROCRISTALLINA/MICROCRYSTALLINE WAX/CIRE MICROCRISTALLINE. HYDROXYETHYLCELLULOSE. PANTHENOL. ROSA CENTIFOLIA FLOWER WAX. ROSA DAMASCENA FLOWER WAX. SUCROSE STEARATE. SPHINGANINE. DIMETHICONE. CAPRYLYL GLYCOL. ASCORBYL PALMITATE. TOCOPHEROL. LAURETH-21. POTASSIUM SORBATE. SYNTHETIC WAX. SODIUM STEARATE. HEXYLENE GLYCOL [MS3211A/00]

Hope this helps - sorry I haven’t made any before as too messy for me. I guess main issue is the wand/brush applying to your eye lashes and contamination.

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I have only used it once and make a face cream that a friend likes better than my other ones that I like - but I’m not a huge fan. You won’t know for yourself unless you buy some and test it. It’s easy to use though and you can make a product with just hand stirring. It does take a while (maybe a day) to get to it’s full thickness (in a cream) in my experience. Just buy a small amount and see. Cheers

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@Perry - Agree I don’t think there are too many women (and certainly not in countries like USA, Australia, UK). Major International Cosmetic companies pay an enormous amount of money in advertising in mainstream media (TV, Mags, Internet) on their anti - aging products and many women (and some men) do continue to buy them. However unfortunately a lot of women don’t want to age gracefully and are also turning to medical procedures and salon treatments (it is quite an eye opening when you read what is now on offer - a lot of the procedures didn’t exist a few years ago. So maybe women - especially the younger ones (ie late 20’s to early 30’s are turning to these treatments rather than anti-age products? - The ones who still live with mum and dad without mortgage here in Australia don’t care how much they spend on themselves. Just an observation. Botex here has become the norm for women in their 20’s which is sad. 

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Interesting. So @Perry you dont use any cleansers for face or body? Or Moisturizer, Sunscreens?
I personally love making my own skincare products and especially recreating or duping the expensive face products that I make for 10 % of the cost of OTC products. I also make a sore muscle balm and cream that is better than any I have tried OTC and for a fraction of the price of some that have similar ingredients to mine. My skin has never been as good as it is now so there must be something good about the products I am making.
I also don’t bother to make Shampoos or any hair products as I have mine colored at my hairdresser (would never use the Supermarket hair coloring versions). I also make body lotions and Oils etc and I make these because I can’t buy the same quality products with the scents I love OTC and I have fun making them. I Usually package and reuse my glass bottles/jars (cleaned and sterilzed) and use new pumps/lids etc each time - so that saves on packaging costs. I make my own labels too and have a fun brand name - I pick packaging that I love and looks good on display. I have found that now that I am set up and have initial costs out of the way I am no longer out of pocket (after 2 and 1/2 years) - so yes initially was more expensive to make my own but now it isn’t. I also now know more of what to buy and how much I am going to use - but in the past I bought too much and wasted a lot. Mine is a hobby and being retired is a fun pastime. I also love to cook and find both a joy - with cooking we get to eat yummy food that to be honest is better than a lot of restaurants, and with skincare as a family we get to use great products for fraction of the price). - anyway that’s me

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@Ghita37 - I have sent a message to your inbox. Maybe in first instance contact someone like New Directions Australia (they also do International enquiries) - click on the services tab and you will see a button for international. They may give you some idea of what they do and how much it all costs and then you can compare or find a Similar Business where you are rather than just a Lab. However, I think before you go down the road of manufacturing, selling, distribution etc you make some products that you are happy to sell and this takes time. Start with 1 product and concentrate on that first. In the meantime, get yourself skilled up to run a Business with all it entails. Note that the Economy is struggling worldwide so launching a new Business will have more challenges than in a better Economic Climate. Even well-established companies in general had lower profits (some substantial and may had losses) in 2022. Cheers and good luck in 2023.

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Thanks @PhilGeis I did that too. I’m a lot more aware of Preservatives and pH after being on this forum. Appreciate your advice. Cheers and happy 2023.

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You should have an idea of the basics on costs. Even homemakers do this - I know it’s the first thing I do when I am formulating. Do you know how to use Excel? If so you just need to do a basic spreadsheet. I have one for each formula and modify as I go and sway ingredients. For me I always include the total cost of my products (even though only for home use). I have a spreadsheet with a list of all the ingredients I have and the amount of each and what cost me with freight included. I then break that down to the cot per gram. No doubt the lab or whatever producing your product would be buying in bulk and therefore have much reduced costs that they may not necessarily pass onto you and they also have include all their overheads, equipment, packaging etc, staff pay, payroll tax or whatever taxes your country has warehousing, distribution, other costs like electricity, water, products and equipment needed for cleaning and sterilizing to name a few. I think you need to do some basic making yourself to understand the costs involved before you go get lab making stuff in bulk. Anyway, if you choose to go down the road with the lab first once you get their costs you need to analyze and breakdown each component or they should provide this for you. Sorry if my comments seem harsh but I was a Business Analyst before I retired and took up my skin making hobby (I worked in a lab years ago as one of my first jobs for many years). It would be best if you did a business study, look at all yours costs and do a basic P&L on your proposed business before making anything - you may find you lose more money than you may potentially make especially in first few years - even if it is eventually a success. It is one thing making products at home or for a small client base to embarking on a full scale business without a business background. Good luck.

Example of my simple stock take spreadsheet (have more columns but can’t show in this format). I believe Google have free spreadsheet similar if you don’t have access or know how to use Excel.

Ingredient	Size (ml)	Supplier	Date ordered	Cost	Shipping cost	Total Cost	Cost per ml
Oil type	1000	xxx	11/09/22	$132	$8.00	$140	$0.1400

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@MarkBroussard yes I thought so to so thanks for confirming that. I am just using a little at moment to test under my eyes (dont worry not getting in eyes) as I have fine wrinkles there and I dont know if my imagination but they appear a little less - I’m lucky I dont really have wrinkles at my age I’m pretty happy with. As for it working for wounds I am really impressed with the results and so is my partner - Thanks heaps for everything really appreciate it. I learn so much from you answering other people’s queries too.

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@MarkBroussard
Hi again Mark well I made a very small batch and ended up using a small amount of Xanthan Gum Clear to get the consistency I wanted. Will test out as we need it and see what we think. Thanks so much will all your help with this it is really appreciated. Cheers.

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@MarkBroussard

Mark thanks so much for your time and advice. Thats what I thought about the 100 kDa HA regarding it being too thin, which is why I thought I’d add the 4D HA so thanks for advice on %’s to try. I have Sodium Benzoate too so will add as suggested. I’m off to make my little batch now based on your suggestions and I’ll let you know how I go. So excited!!! Happy New Year

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Hi @MarkBroussard - If you can advise me a little more that would be great and if not no problem :smile:I bought a small amount 100 ml of the GHK-Cu 1000 ppm solution but didn’t want to use all at once. I have also bought afew different kDa of Hyaluronic Acid (HA) as couldn’t just but 200 kDa. So I have bought a small molecule powder of 100 kDa (says it may be between 80 and 150) but I also bought a liquid of 4D Hyaluronic liquid (that says is a combo of 4 different weights). Just wondering if you could suggest % of each - this is what I was going to try (but would like advice as didn’t want to waste ingredients) - 
GHK-Co 1000 ppm Solution 93.5% approx
100 kDa 100 kDa - 0.50%
4d HA liquid - 5%
Preservative like PlantaservE - 1% or better suggestion?
A thicken like Xanthan Gum Clear or Hydroxyethylcellulose ? 0.3%
I also plan to keep in fridge at about 10 to 12 degrees (my wine fridge) 
Thoughts? Also maybe adding 0.3 to 0.5% allantoin or calendula extract or is this being a bit silly?
Many thanks if you have time to answer (It is only for me and dont plan to sell). Cheers  
If anyone else has further suggestions happy to hear those also.

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@MarkBroussard Merry Christmas I’m going to tell people I’m turning Beegan in 2023 and see what reaction I get - (ie I believe in Bees We have lots of varieties of bees on our garden in the tropics of North Queensland. They are happy little insects, so I reckon Beegan is the way to go. Happy 2023 all.

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Hi @Graillotion sorry didn’t answer sooner as didn’t see comment. My Neroli Water says :Ingredients: Purified Water, Glycerine, PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Potassium Sorbate, Lactic Acid, Neroli Oil, Dimethicone, Sorbitan Stearate, PEG-40 Stearate, Cellulose Gum, Silica, Sodium Benzoate, Sorbic Acid (This is from New Directions Australia). My Rose water is from Aust Wholesale Oils and says: Ingredients: Distillate Water from the Steam Distillation of Rosa Damascena, Preservative (Sodium Benzoate, Gluconolactone - added at less than 1% to stabilize the water). I don’t sell products but when I provide a ingredients list for friends and family as gifts I just list as Rosewater or Neroli Water as they don’t really care. So don’t know what you need to put in your labels for INCI sorry.

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MarkBroussard said:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7950635/

Just hydrate 1% to 2% 200 kDa HA directly in the 1000 ppm GHK-Cu solution and you have a healing gel … add preservatives, of course.

Hey Mark just letting you know (I plan to buy some of the 1000 pm GHK-Cu in January - too busy before Xmas right now with other stuff) but I made and used some HA directly on my cut (it wasn’t deep) and it closed over and healed in 2 days which is amazing for me - so thanks so much for sharing. Looking forward to making myself the healing gel you suggested next year. Cheers and Merry Xmas if I don’t correspond again beforehand.

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MarkBroussard said:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7950635/

Just hydrate 1% to 2% 200 kDa HA directly in the 1000 ppm GHK-Cu solution and you have a healing gel … add preservatives, of course.

Mark you are a legend! Thanks so much, you have made my day.

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Hi @MarkBroussard I always learn something new on this website. Thanks Mark I have never heard of GHK-Cu until now (had to google!) - They sell small quantities of it at MSR in Thailand (just looked up) and the solution of 1000ppm is about $17 (AUD) for 50g. How much of the solution would you recommend in a healing cream product? Does it color your skin (as the powder is blue and wow so expensive but I guess you don’t need much of that as cost is around $340 (AUD) per gram! Also (probably dumb question) how does the 200 kDa H Acid help with wound healing - is it the H Acid itself or is it because it is absorbed into your skin better so any actives go into skin to help with wound healing. I recently gave myself a 2nd degree burn cooking on my hand on palm near index finger and it is taking forever to heal - any suggestions for good OTC products available in Australia (my local Chemist was not very helpful.). I also tend to give myself (not on purpose!) cuts on my hands so any advice on what is best for these too ? Thanks for any advice

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Pharma said:

toketsu said:

…
The fact that your serum is still clear might not mean LAA is still non-oxidized. I heard (but I don’t claim it and would like to know if it is true) that brown color in serum is a reaction of LAA oxidation with aminoacids (the same way as fake tan reacts in skin). So if you have plain mix of LAA and Water you won’t see a color? Also, I’ve seen that there are several steps of degradation, so some products of degradation might not have a color? 
…

The first oxidation step results in a nearly colourless compound which can be reduced back to LAA. Higher amounts should be noticeable as a slight ochre hue. Further reaction steps lead to autopolymerisation and, as you mentioned, also to polymerisation with amino acids and other molecules. These polymers are usually red to brown. Yellow colour can either be shorter polymers or, such as the case with ferulic acid, are the oxidation product of ferulic acid (which is inrensely yellow, if I’m not mistaken).

Thanks Pharma I think that explains the color changes well, especially for a home formulator novice like me. Have a lovely weekend, Cheers

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So if you have a product that you have made like mine and it hasn’t changed color why would you think it is oxidized? How else do you know it has oxidized besides a change in color? (ie. for the home formulator). If you bought a OTC product and it didn’t change color as a consumer you wouldn’t know if had oxidized either would you? You would assume stable? Just interested in everyone’s views. the pH of my product was 3.8 and no I didn’t put the total % of each ingredient in my post and any pH adjustments. Cheers