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Have you tried searching the forum? There have been quite a few recently. Just start with “W/O”.

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Have you considered color matching, draw testing, viscosity and melt temperature? I don’t know how mascara is typically tested. 

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@Pharma do you speed read all day or do you just read while you’re sleeping? 

Haha thank you for educating us (me) on a subject I didn’t know I needed to know about - again. :blush:

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Perry said:

Our unequal earth? Then get just some skills, work hard and you’ll be off poverty. A simple and time-proven solution, comrades.

Hard work is overrated as a solution to poverty. Lots of hard working people are dirt poor. More important is being lucky & being born to the right set of parents in the right country. CEOs certainly aren’t the hardest working people at their companies.

Ding ding ding! Winnerrr!

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Doreen said:

@ngarayeva001
You really don’t need sterile water for cosmetics. You’re not going to inject it I hope? (Plus boiling won’t sterilize it)

I am really curious what else was in that facewash? I’ve never had any visible growth so far in any of my formulas, even the creams that I’ve preserved with Euxyl 9010 at 1%. And I’ve even used collodial oatmeal for a while at 2.5%, years ago. 

(Edit: I forgot to mention that parabens can get inactivated by surfactants. I believe it’s also mentioned in a Phenonip document.)

Hi Doreen,

Not to be difficult, but I do believe boiling water can sterilize it. The center for disease control and the EPA both say a rolling boil for one minute will do it. Now, if this is necessary (sterile water) is arguable. Some (me) might suggest that a sterile substrate is easier to colonize and thus, contaminate. 

Also, the rolling boil for one minute is for drinking water I presume. It should be noted (again, this is just something I’m remembering) that heating water insufficently can activate certain pathogenic spores, leading to their germination. Basically - either heat it well or don’t do it at all IMO.

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Choose a specialty. The range of products you’ve mentioned would be insurmountable for anyone starting fresh. 

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Thanks for posting the excerpts, Gunther. Interesting and certainly not as straightforward as I would have imagined. 

Dimethicone 350cst is thick but… what about a dimethicone gum? It’s inherent attributes may solve the issues presented. 

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Are you looking to emulsify this or you want it to separate - based on your first post? 

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Xanthan gum is known for this stringy nature. It happens more or less, supposedly depending on grade. 

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It’s worth noting that Amazon reviews are all pooled into the same product listing. Seller A, B and C can all sell via product listing X. The reviews received by seller A, B and C will all show, without distinction, under product listing X. So you can see great reviews but then get a poor ingredient from a poor seller (because no one ever specifies which seller they purchased from).

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ngarayeva001 said:

Oils don’t do much in general. When I look at a new oil all I care about is the fatty acid profile (C=C  bonds or no C=C bonds). And in most cases, I just end up using esters anyway. I tried many fancy oils when I started formulating. And with time I got rid of all of them and the only vegetable oils I own now are shea butter, jojoba oil (which is actually a wax) and almond oil because where I live it’s much cheaper than mineral oil (which is ridiculous) and I use it in products that I use quickly and in large amounts such as emulsified body scrubs.

Speaking of castor oil, the only reason to have it (that I see for myself) is to use it in lip products if you make them. It performs well in lip balms and lipsticks. I don’t know why is that (maybe viscosity), but I figure it out in an experimental way and then noticed that it’s used widely in the industry for this purpose. 

Castor oil is used in oil cleansing methods as well. The more oily your skin type, the more castor oil is used. @Dtdang

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@Perry How do you mean? You don’t think adding 17% LAA to a “serving size” of lotion/serum would be an effective means of applying LAA? 

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Check manufacturers’ suggestions of how much of a given emulsifier is recommended. Often they will give a range with specifications depending on the type of product you’re making. 

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helenhelen said:

If you are going for the “advanced” skincare consumer with “minimalist, science-based formulas”, you probably already have something in mind about what the products do for the skin and how they do it? If so, you shouldn’t need to add claims ingredients like honey and aloe for the sake of adding them. You should work on selling on the “science” if that’s what you think is giving your products an edge.

I’m an advanced skincare consumer who reads ingredients lists, and I wouldn’t fall for any marketing based on honey and aloe. To me, it sounds like a Garnier Ultimate Blends sort of thing!

I’m with @helenhelen, I don’t understand why you don’t focus your marketing on supporting the science. “Claims” tends to suggest that there’s more promised than is provided. If you’re using science-backed ingredients, marketing those is your best bet. 

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Correct me if I’m wrong (seriously) but I don’t think viscosity matters for most in vitro testing. In vitro something is often applied and measured, measured, measured, right? But in vivo, as with the dogs, viscosity determines “wear time”, right?

I imagine the thicker the dimethicone, the better the wear time and thus, better effect. Then it would come down to application and tolerability. A liquid isn’t going to be as substantial as a viscous liquid and a viscous liquid isn’t going to be as substantial as a gum. Then there’s the question of additives. 

Ive seen as little as 0.5% dimethicone be listed as “protectant”. I don’t know if this has an occlusive effect. I imagine any amount will reduce moisture loss but to maximize this effect you probably need 2% or more, but I’m typically heavy handed with these types of things. 

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I’ve never heard of using a homogenizer but it doesn’t mean you can’t. I’d wait for other replies. 

As as far as alternatives, ball mills are another common option. Google should help with an exhaustive list of pigment grinding options. 

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Oh I’m not sure about grade/particle size, someone else would probably be better help with that. I’d start with Aerosil for information though as I’ve seen a few helpful PDFs that go over these topics. Aerosil has also been recommended quite a few times on these forums as a good supplier for silica. 

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I’ve seen “oil-free” products lately that include shea butter in their ingredients lists. I guess a butter isn’t an oil……

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Kaolin or calcium carbonate would likely work - so would talc, mica. I don’t know how well these would suspend though. Have you considered silica?

Im not sure these opacifiers will go far though. Especially considering the fluid nature of the product - you wouldn’t want too much. 

Is there a reason for preserving the intense chroma? A tint might be what you need considering the color range most use in airbrush (assuming you’re not aiming for vibrant face/body paint).

Finally, a current ingredients list would help us better assist, as we don’t know what you’re already using and compatibility, etc. 

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You could add styrene/isoprene crosspolymer or a similar polymer. A clear, high gloss wax could help. Finally, what about stickier oils like hydrogenated polyisobutene?

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Are you saying that you’re not getting full color development with castor oil but you do with octyldodecanol/CCT?

Seconding what @ngarayeva001 said: I don’t think polarity is the issue. And - castor oil is very frequently used for pigment grinding for its ability to wet pigments so I’m not sure we have enough information. Perhaps you could post the entire formula so we can help?

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Pharma said:

Another “oil binder” (dunno how a substance which helps mixing oils of different polarity is called, hence I call it unprofessionally “oil binder”)

@Pharma I think it’s called a “coupling agent”.

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Belassi said:

I can’t believe that so far nobody has noticed that this is a completely fake product. Look at the fake brand (trying to copy L’Oreal) and the incredibly stupid product description on the package in rubbish English.

Aww, I’m a few hours late! I had a good laugh after sounding out the brand name a few times. “Low-ee-al… llo-ee-all… L’Oreal! It’s L’Oreal!”

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Yes, rather than try to retain the water you can heat more than enough to compensate for evaporation. Measure right before mixing.

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What’s the purpose of neutralizing stearic acid in this situation? I assume you’re only neutralizing it, not saponifying it eg. sodium hydroxide -> sodium stearate. How will it influence the product?

Also, I agree with @tanelise the shea butter may be causing the cakey consistency in the proportions you used if you don’t control the cool down.