[Silvia]

Thanks so much to everyone who replied ! Very grateful for information!

[Silvia]

Hi, DeedeeUkulele,

very interesting post regarding L-Ascorbic and Ferulic acid. Those two ingredients also bothering me.  
Thanks to all for great comments, especially Pharma, so valuable info!!! 
 
I must to add, that so the temperature is important. You have mentioned that heated up propanediol to 50 degrees to dissolve the ferulic acid, but LAA you  added later or at the same temperature? This is crucial and speeds up ascorbic acid degradation - light and heat should be avoided with those ingredients ( me have tested creams with MAP at 40 C, so in that temperature they were getting yellow more quickly about 2-3 weeks as in room temperature could stand one year almost white color.
The other thing regarding oxidation and chemical changes even if could not be indicated by color is odor. Have the smell of serum changed in your case?
I have got not color changes in my serum, but the odor became so unpleasant and strong …like at dentistry cab.

Please see my post here (its about MAP and Ferulic acid serum) https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/69302#Comment_69302.

[Silvia]

Hi, what about O-Cymen-5-ol , does anyone used it as secondary or primary preservative? Or there are too many issues with it?
Also please tell your opinion about caprylyl glycol + phenethyl alccohol + potassium sorbate? Could be chlorphenesin used single in formulation? 

[Silvia]

Hi,
thank you for your comments, it is really good to receive more information and shared experience with the formulation issues. Squinny, regarding temperature range the odor changed in samples incubated at 40 C and at up 25 C  (room temperature) as well. So I don`t think that temperature was the main factor. As for Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate so indeed I used it in cream fromula, so I know that temperature higher than 25 speed up color changes to yelowish and brown. But for this case with Ferulic acid smth  goes wrong so I have the same opinion as Ketchito  and will try to make serum without FA and will see. 

[Silvia]

Squinny said:

Silvia said:

Hi,
several month before I have made hyaluronic acid (1%) serum with ferulic acid 0.3 %  (dissolved in heated propanediol 5 %). 
Also included MAP (mg ascorbyl phosphate), preservative potassium sorbate. 
The initial data: pH 6; odour - neutral. 
After one month in 40C temperature - serum acquired strong odor like diethyl ether used in dentistry or some of a kind as clove essential oil (Syzygium aromaticum). Please tell, what do you think happened? As ferulic acid  is 4-hydroxy -3 -methoxycinnamic acid, suppose it degraded into other compound or has interact with other ingredients? 

Thank you. 

Hi probably dumb questions here (by me) but I have been researching (for my own use only) the patent etc by L’Oreal on stability etc of Ascorbic Acid in conjunction with Ferulic Acid from what I can gather (again my mistakes if I dont understand) is with 15% L-ascorbic acid + 1% alpha tocopherol and 0.5% ferulic acid that this enhances antioxidant benefits and the stability of Vit C and E. (note this is with pH within 2.5 to 3.5 range).

So could the problem be pH of 6 too high - as all info I have found re Vit C works better at around pH 3.5 (assume more stable? or not) and the products should be be stored away from light in airtight containers. I am planning to make a few face gels/serums for myself at some stage (just playing with to see what hype of Vit C etc all about as I have never used). I was planning on adding up to 1% of Phloretin (would like to use less as very expensive) - Anyway if I am way off target would be good to know before I purchase some of the more expensive ingredients. Hope I havent hijacked the original discussion! (if so just ignore). Cheers all.

Hi, Squinny,

it is nice you shared you comments regarding formulations with Ascorbic and ferulic acids. In my case I used Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate which as I remember can be around 6 pH. As I understand both of these ingredients are antioxidants and easily reactive in water formulations, so they both requiring additional stabilizers or antioxidants (maybe it could help) also I have read one article about encapsulated Ferulic acid and better stability. But probably the material would cost more. (regarding the light and packaging - yes I kept the serum in airless bottle and away from direct sunlight, so it these 2 factors couldn`t make a damage to formula). 

[Silvia]

Pharma said:

Ascorbic acid degrades to a plethora of aroma compounds (before polymerising to dark pigments). Ferulic acid can speed up AA degradation and might, in theory, also form aroma compounds but, I guess, is more likely to simply polymerise to yuck.

Pharma, thank you very much for your comment. How do you think I could prevent it? to increase percentage of propanediol or adding other polyols, or smth. else, like antioxidants BHT or other? or better to use other form of ferulic acid more stable (ethylhexyl ferulate or encapsulated FA)?

[Silvia]

Dear Pharma,
thank you so much for so detailed explanation! You really helped. Have a  beautiful day!
Again.. me only can thank once more Perry for this wonderful place with smart and amazing people here! Chemist corner is a treasure among the cosmetic chemists. 

[Silvia]

Did you looked at LotionCrafter ? If I wrote correctly, it seems the supplier in USA

[Silvia]

suswang8 said:

That is helpful.  Can I ask how small?  :o}.    (Either way, it’s probably too much for me.)

Suswang8,   1 kg, the price is about 400 euros per kilo. 

[Silvia]

suswang8 said:

I have to say that I went shopping for MAP and SAP recently and was amazed at the prices:  $21/oz, and from China, on Making Cosmetics.  Please post again if you end up finding a good supplier for small quantities.

Hi, yes recently I have found German supplier - GFN - Selco. And gonna buy from them, I think this is a good reputation company and as I got reply they sell small quantities as well. 

http://www.gfn-selco.de Totally agree with you regarding price and quality. Found that Making Cosmetics has MAP of China origin, sad..

[Silvia]

Microformulation, Thank you!

[Silvia]

Perry said:

There are lots of suppliers.  See here https://www.knowde.com/

Perry, thank you very much for help! 

[Silvia]

chemicalmatt said:

@Silvia Carbomers and multivalent ions DO NOT play well together. You added not only Mg, but also Na (gluconate) and K (sorbate). All those electrolytes will collude to crash the cross-links in carbomer. Also, who uses actual Carbopol 940 anymore? Costs twice the competitive materials’ price.

Chemicalmatt, thank you very much for your comments!
I will try to make it a little bit different. Potassium sorbate can change with other preservative, Mg ascorbyl phospate should be in formula because of cream function:)..Maybe adding Carbomer to oil phase and homogenize with water phase will improve the stability, or another way to sprinkle it in pre-emulsion and homogenize?
 What could you tell about nicotinamide impact on polymers such as carbomer, hyaluronic acid and hydroxy methyl ethyl cellulose gel structure?
Thank you for sharing your opinion!

[Silvia]

Dreamer77 said:

I have solved the problem already, formulated it twice since last post and accelerated the stability issue by heating it up in temperature over 50C with no colouration whatsoever.

 When I say highend actives its not what marketers say for them but what I believe according to my experience is really high end.

In the formula I have excluded ie Argireline and all known Botox like effect peptides but I include a couple of peptides from its creator, he has created a new company after he sold Lipotec to investors.

I have a vast arsenal of actives already and quite a few formulas for various applications for both cosmetic and otc field, all tested with 100% success. If you’re interested send me a message and we’ll talk, I have already loads of results and I plan to set this formula on clinical trial myself as well. Also, there are actives out there that you have no idea they exist, the most expensive one that I have found costs around $15K per KG and it’s not bee venom or such.

Thanx everyone for the input, you helped me clear my mind and move forward.

Hello, very interesting post. After reading your post I have some thoughts about results at photos and the product.

You did a great formula, this is really amazing results, if it works even though only on mimic wrinkles. I noticed that mostly effect is on mimic zones, that is peptides work. I guess those which  acts at SNARE complex. It gives sudden botox like effect but only until you use it. Anyway is good to use such cream to get rid and prevent more wrinkles.
You mentioned that so dramatic change occurs in 10 minutes after application. As far as I know physiologically act in so short time can only hormons, steroids or mediators. So I hope you don’t use epinephrine, steroids as fluticazone or others. 
So if these amazing  effects would occured after 2 or 4 weeks daily application it would be more convincable to me about the long lasting effectivness of formula. 
But still the results are impressive! Make a brand name!

[Silvia]

Currently on these days we encountered one question regarding the silanols efficiency. Methyl silanol mannuronate goes in many formulations as soothing, anti-inflammatory and collagen production stimulating agent. We had found one supplier who has it in  compound with ascorbic acid.
How do you think ascorbic acid and methylsilanol pectinate campound 0.96 concentration (raw material consist of water, Ascorbyl methylsilanol pectinate, propanediol) is worthy attention? Could it be considered to put into formulation for soothing and anti-aging emulsion? Or it will be only traces of active ingredient and no effect on skin? Would be grateful for your comments.

[Silvia]

Hello, everyone,

I am so glad to discover this website! Mr. Perry you share so much valuable information here just can`t believe is for free:) I am from Lithuania, working in biotech company and just started to produce cosmetic line. So this website and community forum is like some kind  a treasure for me.
I am graduated in biology (university) and many years worked in cosmetology field. So I have a lot of experience in beauty treatments and products, ingredients, but still need much knowledge in formulation and ingredients compatibility questions. 

Mr. Perry, I am very interested in your course about Cosmetic formulating. I looked through all the courses. What would you advice,  which would be the best option for me to choose if I don`t need skin biology, medicine part, but prefer more formulation, ingredients incompatibility questions, polymers,  natural ingredient formulation but still effective products. Thank you in advance:)