[Rafacasti]

@Pharma Thanks for your book recommendations! I only had contact with Lehninger during graduation, so I think it will diversify my knowledge a lot (organic chemistry really wasn’t a big thing in my course, everything I know came from high school and individual studies). Thanks also for the course recommendations.

Have a good day! 

[Rafacasti]

Perry said:

What questions about Vitamin C oxidation are you trying to find answers to?

You got me … I think I’m first trying to build a background on the subject to be able to better answer cosmetic questions. 

At the chemical level:

• What conditions are necessary for the reaction to occur?

• Why is the molecule so unstable?

• Can other reactions be triggered by oxidation?

• The darkening is due to what reason?

• What happens (on the skin) after oxidation?

On a cosmetic level:

• What happens in the product? Does it contribute to instability?

• Why are water vehicles especially more sensitive than silicones?

• Using the oxidized vitamin will not lead to cosmetic effects, but would it in itself be harmful to apply this product to the skin after darkening?

In fact, I don’t know how much of it really helps me with what I need, but I end up feeling more comfortable when I understand the subject beforehand (chemistry before cosmetology, in this case). I can answer some of the chemical questions myself because of my biology background, but I think I’m looking for something more specific so that I can look for cosmetic references directly later (I ended up choosing to ask for suggestions instead of asking these questions directly because I didn’t want to ask too much :sweat_smile: ).

When I’m asked to do research at work I always think “if I were to teach someone from the start who doesn’t know anything about this subject, where would I start?” and then there I go 

[Rafacasti]

I’ve seen Belinda Carli from The Institute of Personal Care talk about it on their channel a few times, like in this video here.

Briefly, she points out that high shear is not the same as high RPM. Shear is related to the type of blade that is used in the homogenizer, so even if you stir at low RPM, the shear will remain the same if you don’t change the blade type.

In this case, the recommendation is that you opt for a low shear blade.

[Rafacasti]

ketchito said:

@Rafacasti As far as I know, antioxidants once deposited on the skin, help preventing the formation of reactive oxygen species, a type of free radicals, being a secondary aid to skin protection…but only if they didn’t oxidize yet. 

Thank you for the confirmation! 

I found some interesting studies on this emphasizing the synergy between filters and some types of antioxidants and I think I ended up running into a confusion of concepts. Thank you for your help! I’m leaving the references below, in case you may be interested or someone bumps into this topic in the future (:

1. Hubner, A., Sobreira, F., Vetore Neto, A., Pinto, C. A. S. de O., Dario, M. F., Díaz, I. E. C., … Bacchi, E. M. (2019). The Synergistic Behavior of Antioxidant Phenolic Compounds Obtained from Winemaking Waste’s Valorization, Increased the Efficacy of a Sunscreen System. Antioxidants, 8(11), 530. doi:10.3390/antiox8110530 

2. Lorigo, M., & Cairrao, E. (2019). Antioxidants as stabilizers of UV filters: an example for the UV-B filter octylmethoxycinnamate. Biomedical Dermatology, 3(1). doi:10.1186/s41702-019-0048-9 

3. Samper, M. D., Fages, E., Fenollar, O., Boronat, T., & Balart, R. (2012). The potential of flavonoids as natural antioxidants and UV light stabilizers for polypropylene. Journal of Applied Polymer Science, 129(4), 1707–1716. doi:10.1002/app.38871

[Rafacasti]

ketchito said:

@Rafacasti Antioxidants work stabilizing mostly organic UV filters, to expand its shelf life. Organic UV filters due to their nature tend to be prone to oxidation. Inorganic filters tend to be more stable, especially the coated ones. Now, antioxidant is a broad term, and there are different compounds that work in specific ways, being the most specialized, the high energy state quenchers. 

Thank you @ketchito!

Do they also improve the skin protection against UV rays or this is a job just for the filters?

( I think I should used the term “photostability” of the formulation earlier in my questions :sweat_smile: )

[Rafacasti]

If your client doesn’t mind making a solid, invest in a stick. I don’t know the prices outside of my country, so I can’t say for sure if it would work, but here’s a suggestion of ingredients for that scenario:

Coconut oil + Corn Starch + Beeswax + Sodium bicarbonate + Essential oil.

These ingredients are listed in one of Humble’s products (I don’t remember exactly which one, but you can check it out here) and it’s pretty minimalist. I can’t predict  the concentrations, but it’s just a matter of testing and you can modify it as you prefer/please your client more. In fact, there are a lot of deodorant sticks with very few ingredients (natural-lovers tend to like this and also the “no water? no problem” thing)

Regarding the formulation you showed, I would suggest you try decreasing the amount of sepigel to 1% and slightly decreasing the Jojoba oil. You see, this oil is a little “hard” and is actually considered a “liquid wax”, not an oil. Maybe there’s a possibility to replace it? Sunflower, Sweet Almond?

Oh, and about D5, maybe it’s a little difficult but you can make an appeal by substituting for “Dodecane” (I like PARAFOL 12-97 RSPO-MB) and using the RSPO responsible chain as an appeal to your customer.

 

[Rafacasti]

Hi @Soso!

I’m no expert, but I studied a little on the subject a while ago. Could you share your formula?

Oh, and the customer requires it to be a roll-on? There are a few other types of formulations that can be useful if he’s open to changes (something anhydrous/solid can be cheaper and more efficient, depending on the case).

[Rafacasti]

Microformulation said:

“We use laser aligned water made deep in a mine in Ukraine. Our products are aligned with the Earth’s magnetic field.”

They then insisted that when we staged the pallets of finished goods we aligned the pallets on a North/South axis using a compass.

Imagine their reaction when they find out that the North Pole (magnetic) of their compass actually points to the Pole South (geographic)! What a mess!

PhilGeis said:

“Defies gravity”

but it was for a hair gel.  

I found an active ingredient once that said almost the same thing. Something like “the solution to gravity-induced skin effects”. I never thought Isaac Newton would become a marketing villain 🤣

[Rafacasti]

I only stir by hand to pre-homogenize some phase of the formulation before heating or using the mixer, but almost every time I prefer to use glass rods… when I’m not using it I try a silicone/rubber spatula or a stainless steel one. I prefer the silicone ones, but as they’re a little bit large it’s more for a brief homogenization than something more complete in itself. They’re very good at removing residues too.

In the end you can use almost anything in your reach, but please: even if you’re in a hurry DON’T use the glass thermometers… I’m tired of seeing experienced formulators use them when trying to streamline processes… just… don’t.

[Rafacasti]

Hi, @Aminaaa!

Well, let’s go to some points:

1. Your formula really has a lot of ingredients. If it’s an incompatibility issue between any of them, it’s hard to tell which one unless you take them out one by one and see the results. I would recommend that you try to remove some of them that don’t have so much effect, as the others suggested above.

2. The “natural” people tend to value formulations with few ingredients. There’s a concept called “10 or less”, where some formulations (and the DIY ones) try not to exceed 10 ingredients. Maybe it’s an interesting challenge for you (as it might even save you some money)

3. Finally, I think it might be interesting for you to invest in more than one product. If you like the effects of oils but don’t want to compromise the effectiveness of the shampoo, why not try making a conditioner and/or a hair mask with those same oils, to leave on and hydrate your hair? I know it’s good to find more than one thing in the same product, but that sometimes makes it less effective and more expensive.

Regarding the mixing you mentioned, I would recommend a low RPM as it’s a shampoo (I use +/- 300 RPM for light weight samples, normally 100-200g). Oh, and prefer low-shear propellers (blades)! Because it’s a shampoo, high shear and high mixing can lead to bubble formation (nothing wrong with that, but they take a while to disappear).

[Rafacasti]

Could you explain what exactly you mean by “waste water” from reverse osmosis? I don’t know if I understood.

Anyway. I think the well should not be an option, as this type of water can naturally contain heavy metals and pollutants, among other things. I’ve read many case studies about tap water from homes (from well sources) making people sick and turning pipes green. Of course, the exposure time in this case is so much longer than the application of cosmetics, but it can make your formulas more unstable even with the use of chelating agents.

Does your company’s tap water come from the same source (the well)? As tap water is treated to be usable on a daily basis (but not exactly consumable), I think it would be a better option (although perhaps not as suitable).

[Rafacasti]

I once heard that between the two forms of vitamin E most used in cosmetics (“Tocopheryl Acetate” and “Tocopherol”) one is more effective for protecting cosmetics and the other for having antioxidant action on the skin (not sure which one) - and that, if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t protects the formulation. So, research with your suppliers before deciding what to use.

I believe that a concentration of +/- 0.3% (of the right Vitamin E) would be effective in protecting the formulation, but I could be wrong.

If anyone has more details on this it would be interesting, I don’t have much basis on this subject to go further.

[Rafacasti]

I loved these comments! Made my day!

I remembered a cosmetics line that an influencer (Bianca Andrade, known as “Boca Rosa”) here in Brazil launched last year emphasizing the “quartz” thing. You can check out the products here, but I think they don’t have the “holistic vibe” you’re looking for 

P.S.: If I may, I would suggest putting some different color on your product, like a blue or yellow and maybe a little bit of “star/fairy dust” (read as: mica)… It should attract some mystical prying eyes at least 

🤭

[Rafacasti]

Adamnfineman said:

Rafacasti said:

Also, “Disodium EDTA” is for acidic pH (- 7.0) and “Tetrasodium EDTA” is for alkaline pH (+ 7.0).

@Rafacasti
What would happen if you used tetrasodium EDTA in products with an acidic pH?

I’m asking because we ran out of disodium EDTA for a while and we ended up using tetrasodium for a good amount of batches until we got some more delivered. All the products we formulated at that time were acidic. I was told they were more or less interchangeable. 

Hello, Adamn! I’m sorry for delay in replying!

Not too sure about the details, but as @PhilGeis said, it evolves solubility (and other little things)

- Disodium EDTA

• Sodium cations: 2 (per molecule)
• Atoms of hydrogen: 4 (two of them are binded with the sodium cations)
• Molecular mass: 336.2 g/mol
• pH: 4-6 (sometimes 7, but never higher)
• Soluble in: water
• Structure: C(10)H(14)N(2)Na(2)O(

- Tetrasodium EDTA

• Sodium cations: 4 (per molecule)
• Atoms of hydrogen: 4 (all of them are binded with the sodium cations)
• Molecular mass: 380.1 g/mol
• pH: 10-11 (sometimes higher or lower, but never lower than 7)
• Soluble in: water, ethanol (slightly)
• Structure: C(10)H(14)N(2)Na(4)O(
• Also, presents a higher potential to “sequestrate” metal ions

Both of them are subproducts of EDTA synthesis, used as chelating agents (and sometimes as preservatives, if I’m not wrong)… I heard once that Tetrasodium EDTA is more irritating and presents ecotoxicity in some way, but I’m not sure about that.

Anyway, I have no examples of incompatibilities between ingredients and these two forms of EDTA, but I think it would make little to no difference in your formulations (as I supposed you’re using low concentrations)… At least in my country (Brazil) I saw Tetrasodium EDTA far fewer times when compared to Disodium EDTA (most of the cases with Tetrasodium had both)

Sorry if this wasn’t the answer you wanted, but it’s all I could find and remembered. Hope it helps in some way! (:

[Rafacasti]

Happy birthday, Perry! Thank you for always sharing your knowledge with us and creating this community! Best wishes, enjoy your day! 

🥳

[Rafacasti]

PhilGeis said:

Not aware of any Na thiosulphate use as cosmetic preservative.   It’s a reducing agent.

Agree - it’s only effective vs. remnant hypochlorite in solution.  Does not reverse existing reaction with hair protein.

Sorry, you’re right about that! Thanks for correcting me!

Lab said:

Hi guys! A little update here.

As recommended, I switched my focus to copper instead of chlorine in my research. But still no clue about the concentration… I already use 0.1% Disodium EDTA as a chelator in many products I formulate, but in all the technical materials I’ve found they don’t say anything about % in this type of product I’m trying to make.

Does anyone have knowledge about this to share? I looked for articles and didn’t find anything either (still doing my research). I don’t know if it’s a very specific topic and if there really are any in-depth studies on it, but I think I’m more skeptical about these products now.

Oh! And should I use Disodium or Tetrasodium EDTA? Is there any difference in this case? I never worked with the second type.

Thank you in advance!

I did a little research on the topic of copper and found something interesting… It seems that some dermatologists prescribe something called “Penicillamine ” for people who have green hair, so they dissolve a 250mg capsule with 5ml of shampoo (traditional) + 5ml water (tap?) to help removal of copper from the hair fiber. In the studies I’ve read the timelapse for the change is +/- 2 months.

Also, “Disodium EDTA” is for acidic pH (- 7.0) and “Tetrasodium EDTA” is for alkaline pH (+ 7.0).

[Rafacasti]

Perry said:

I think most companies use deionized water. See this post on the subject of water for cosmetics.

I’ve seen many products listing “Deionized Water” instead of just “Water” in their ingredient list (or “Eau”), even in technical dossiers. If there’s no need to specify the type of water, why do brands put it that way?

Also, is it fair to use, for example, “Demineralized water” (or other water) as a claim for the product?

[Rafacasti]

emma1985 said:

Rafacasti said:

Is there a specific problem with this? I mean, I’m asking in general, if there’s something that interferes with the measurement or if it’s just the adhesion of the product to the equipment that is complicated to deal with.

Just the inability to properly clean the pH meter. At least my pH meter. I would have dried up emulsion bits all around the diode.

In this case, my cleaning tips are:

 

- When not using the pH meter, let the electrode “rest” in a KCl solution

- If you intend to use it, wash the electrode with a gentle jet of water from a pissette (only water!)

- Then dry the electrode with a paper towel (very carefully)

- Measure the pH and repeat the cleaning process whenever you want to take a new measurement (ie: clean > dry > measure > clean > dry > measure…)

- If you know you will be using the pH meter many times in a short period of time, you can let it “rest” in a beaker filled with water instead of KCl to avoid dehydration (but return it to KCl when you are done with all measurements)

Note: Even if you are going to measure the same batch/same product, always clean the electrode before finishing the first measurement (and dry it with a paper towel). Even if you think “Hm, I’m just going to add 0.1% Citric Acid to adjust the pH of this formulation, I don’t need to wash”, clean it in the same way. It’s easier to remove the emulsion when it’s fresh. Remaining formulation on the electrode may change your results for the next measurements.

[Here I’m used to do this process with a Gehaka 4200 (not sure if this brand is available abroad the country I live). If someone thinks this is not the correct way to do it, you can tell me. I just learned this way and never searched for something different because it works well]

[Rafacasti]

Bill_Toge said:

in my experience, sodium thiosulphate is used as a chlorine-neutralising agent, and as @Abdullah says, EDTA will remove copper

This is very interesting. I thought Sodium Thiosulphate was just a preservative in cosmetics. I know it’s very common to use it in pools to remove chlorine, but I never related its use in cosmetics…

I’m not sure about the complete mechanism of action, but in pools its only removes chlorine that’s already in the water (turning it in an inactive salt, as I remember). So, in cosmetics the action will be only in the formulation or in the hair too? Do you know the concentration that must be used to be effective? 

[Rafacasti]

emma1985 said:

I’ve found some really accurate pH strips. I’ve tested them against my Apera pH meter many times and they are always accurate. So I use pH strips because there’s no other way to test emulsions other than making a 10% solution which I won’t do because it’s not accurate.

I still use my pH meter for aqueous products though.

Do you think that the measurement of emulsions in the pH meter is not accurate without the 10% dilution? In my experience I’ve always used it directly in the final formulation and it worked (I even compared it with the pH strips and found the same values)

Is there a specific problem with this? I mean, I’m asking in general, if there’s something that interferes with the measurement or if it’s just the adhesion of the product to the equipment that is complicated to deal with

[Rafacasti]

Hi, Zahra! What a topic! Let me try to help you. Go through this topics according to your problem:

If your problem is the performance of your product:

•  Try to increase the amount of surfactants (in total)
• “Cocamidopropyl Betaine” (CAPB) and “Sodium Lauryl Ether Sulfate” (SLES) are good options and make a really good foam (this system will be more viscous, so don’t use too much “CAPB” because “SLES” will react with it)
• It’s not spreading properly? Issues with hardness? Increase a little bit the percentage of emollients (oils and waxes)
• Feeling on skin not so good? Silicones. But not too much, only one can work well. Maybe a volatile silicone like “Cyclopentasiloxane” works better (as it’s liquid and increases spreadability nicely, also it’s very easy to homogenize)… you can use some kind of powdered sensory modifier like “Talc” or “Tapioca Starch“

 If your problem is with the foam in specific:

• Silicones could be the problem, once they’re foam inibitors, just like oils, alcohols, glycerides and some solvents as acetone
• You can also try to use (very) low concentrarions of “Xanthan Gum” (or other gum) to stabilize this foam (but the final aspect of your product will be not so beauty, so make sure you have no grums in it)
• If you choose to use “CAPB” and “SLES”, the foam will increase

If your problem is with conditioning the hair:

• Choose 1 or 2 of these to add: “Polyquaternium-10“, “Behentrimonium Chloride“, “Cetrimonium Chloride“
• I’m not sure about the aspect of your cleanser, but if you don’t mind about transparency at all, try “Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol“

If your problem is with keratin:

• As an active, use it at the max of 1% because if you overtake this level it will be a waste of money (because it would not have a better impact in the formulation)
• Keratin can break the viscosity of your formulation in some way, so continue stirring it for a while until everything is homogenized again

If your problem is the tecnical procedures to formulate:

• Realize what step is being hard to you and tell us exactly what it is. Is the heating? Mixing? Reach homogeniciety? Thick the system? pH stability? Percentages/concentrations? Raw materials? Etc…

And… here some tips I think could help you through the process:

• Less is better! As other said, your formulation is really big. You have a lot of ingredients, some of them from the same category, what is unecessary. This will impact negatively your job because the formulation will be more expensive with more ingredients (even if in low concentrations), so, try to reduce them to 1 of each category and see what happens. Then, try to improve the formula adding only the necessary, one ingredient per time.
• Have in mind that everyone has different types of hair, so your product will not be able to help everyone. This happens with all the cosmetics and it’s fine! I know you’re trying your best, so keep in that!
• The best product to you is not the better to your company, sometimes (and it happens a lot!). Try to cut expenses reducing the ingredients and you’ll be an angel that can save a lot of money and time for them! Also, there is more people working in the same product than you? Listen what they have to say and search for opinions of colleagues to have a better guidance if you want to.
• English is not the main language of many of us, and it’s ok! Mine is not pretty good too (sometimes I use a translator or a dictionary to make sure I’m doing it correctly)… Well, tell us where are you from (which country) and what language do you speak (your native language) so we may eventually find someone that speaks the same language that you. If you’re having issues with english or have doubts about how to explain your problems with this formulation, this could help a little bit more.
• I’m not sure about the cosmetics regulations of your country, but always make sure everything is alright with that (concentrations, ingredients, etc). If your main goal is to export your products, have in mind which country is your target and take a read on the regulation that is applied there (EU, FDA, ANVISA…)

Finally, let me know if this was helpful and good luck with your project! (:

[Rafacasti]

EVchem said:

You could try doing an oil rinse and then following with alcohol/ surfactant. Or maybe invest in a sonicator / an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner

Thank you! I did it with Sunflower oil (Helianthus Annus (Sunflower) Seed Oil) and LESS (Sodium Laureth-2 Sulfate) together and to finish I used a type of paper towel to remove the rest of the sunscreen formulation. It worked out well and made my job a lot easier, very very thank you!

Anyway, sunflower oil maybe wasn’t a good choice, I just did it for testing. Do you have any recommendations for a cheaper oil to use instead?