PhilGeis
Forum Replies Created
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Tocopherol is a good idea. Some use parabens to prevent mold. TKB Cap 2 (glycols and phenoxyethanol) would be good vs bacteria esp. Gram negative bacteria. A wax based lipstick is not much of a bacterial risk, and those are are poor vs fungi.
Perhaps consider just a paraben. -
Tyss - are you referring to Dove beauty bar soap? Be aware its isethionate sulfonate surfactants are syndets (synthetic detergents ) aso not natural.
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Sale does not require preservative per se. Is it classic wax based product?
Re. TKB, think the exp would be for the material meeting its own spec - so within that period it should be as intended.
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Ask TKB for an ex. date. If they can’t/won’t respond, do not use their products.
Are you sure you need a preservative in a lipstick? -
You have tested 100’s - so what has been the reaction of the “vocal 1%” who complained? Was this you literally or in controlled clinical study? As you know, it’s important that subjective observations with out easy metrics be conducted by uninterested experts.
And what is the product, please? -
Leo said:Chlorox bleach is neutralized to a much lower pH than 12.
Household Bleach is usually at pH 11-13 depending on use.Common soaps have a pH of between 9-11 and have routine warnings to keep out of eyes and what to do if soap gets in your eyes.
The pH 11 gel will be used near the eye but it rapidly dries upon skin contact (within one minute). It may, in some, produce an intended mild irritation and mild redness of the skin that resolves after a few minutes. Once dried upon contact with skin, it cannot harm the eye.
Soap will do more harm to the eye since it is lathered and foamy and people tend to spread soap into their eyes during application. The key is to NOT get the gel in the eye during application with your fingers (which you have much more control than with soap).
Instructions: Apply to crows feet and under the eyes. Keep out of eyes. Do not apply to eyelids. Keep each eye closed until product is fully dried! Do not apply with other products.
Additional instructions will be provided if the gel gets in the eyes (rinse immediately with water and seek medical attention if eye irritation develops, etc.). Instructions will also be provided to address if irritation of skin is severe or persists.
One has to take risks if one wants to use a product that performs and provides effects on eye wrinkles!
If the product does not produce some form of harmful effect, it will not affect wrinkles….and will only be another marketing BS story….
The goal is to help 99% and expect that there will be a vocal 1% that will complain.
The media focus will always be on the vocal 1% and is the reason our society is becoming non-functional…like cosmetics in general.
Covid as a prime example! We are planning to vaccinate our entire population to preserve the 1% that are expected to die….Clorox bleach is 12 pH (“12.1” on MSDS/SDS - https://www.thecloroxcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Clorox-Regular-Bleach2-Bilingual.pdf) in the package, and please recall the observation of Clorox pH was in ref. to your question re. packaging (bottle composition). It is not neutralized for packaging and would be unstable if it were. The only significant difference between Clorox and “common household bleach” is purity, not Na hypochlorite concentration or pH.
Common true soaps are rare and do not bear an eye warning - unless they make cosmetic claims, they’re they’re regulated only by EPA/CPSC not FDA. In any case, I don’t understand their risk to eyes relevant to your pH 11+ product. Covid comparison is profoundly irrelevant both in concept and in FDA/CPSC risk considerations and enforcement.
To the point - what are your in-use data that defend the safety of the pH 11 product usage? You should be concerned with any % that “complain” when that complaint addresses a safety issue. Please recall - FDA policy addresses safety in use, not for 99% - but safe in use. Safety is an affirmative data-based consideration - not the imagination of the seller. If you’re making cosmetic claims, suggest you consider labeling in compliance with
Cosmetics With Unsubstantiated SafetyWarning-The safety of this product has not been determined.
21 CFR 740.10
Not sure if you’re joking re. “One has to take risks if one wants to use a product that performs and provides effects on eye wrinkles!” If not - would you mind sharing your name and product?
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Graillotion said:I use 9010 + Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol.
I don’t recall 9010 having an odor. Maybe you got a bad batch?
In any case… PE Alcohol has a lovely rose fragrance…so it might cover the odor you are having with the 9010.It blends well with about any floral scent, and especially well with rose absolute.
Why phenyl ethyl alcohol? It targets that same bugsas phenoxyethyl only less effetively and you still have a fungal gap.
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I’m sure no packaging expert - but Clorox bleach (e.g. pH 12) - think it’s in HDPE. http://menda.descoindustries.com/PDF/ChemicalResistanceChart.pdf
Are you sure the anti-wrinkle is safe - esp. if used near eyes? -
KNO3 is in toothpaste as a desensitizing agent , not preservative.
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Let me also add - as the pH becomes extreme, the classic PET becomes less useful - the product “passes” with or without preservaton even tho suscpetible to contamination. Be aware -the USP bugs are lab creatures that happily grow at ~ neutral pH where they’d lived since initial submission to ATCC up to 80+ years from isolation - on neutral pH media.
Also - the product contaminants as pH’s become extreme start to engage with extremophiles that won’t grow well (potentially won’t grow at all) on conventional media but will still deteriorate the product. Those bugs contaminating at extreme pH are less likely to be pathogenic but preservation at those pH’s is a real pain. -
Leo said:
@PhilGeis Sir-the packaging for the liquid soap (pH 10) is a plastic container with a foam pump.Is a micro challenge recommended and definitive?
Which preservative(s) would you use?
In your experience, regarding a different product, have you heard of microbes contaminating a gel at pH 11?
Not sure I’d preserve that soap. Is this a cosmetic? How effective do you see the package as protection? Perhaps do some in-use exppsure.
ph !1 gel. Can you tell me smething about the product? At that pH - is it a cleanng product?
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Paprik - if you can tke the smell, with 9010 - mayte some Benzoate if the pH workand EDTA. What’s the product
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Saligard EHGP would be pretty ineffective vs fungi.
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I’m Phil Geis. Was responsible for micro P&G’s cosmetic and lother businesses for ~ 2 decades. Retited to consuultant. I’ve followed Perry’s info - been a fan for years. Want to share my knowledge and experience and learn from you guys.
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mikethair said:If the liquid soap has a pH 9 - 10, a preservative is unnecessary. Refer to ISO29621 “Cosmetics — Microbiology — Guidelines for the risk assessment and identification of microbiologically low-risk products.”We have a GMP Certified production facility producing a lot of liquid soap, and export globally. These products are Notified with cosmetics authorities and all the necessary testing is done in our in-house labs and verified by external labs.
Liquid soaps can be contaminated. I’ve observed actual colonies of bacteria in/on amended bar soaps.
ISO 29621 claims pH >10 as cutoff for preservation, not 9-10. Recall please ISO’s are concensus decisions - good as a guideline but not absolute. Certainly one can have microbial contamination at >10.Please also recall that preservation is primary intended to protect the product in-use, not as delivered. In this, packaging is an important preservative element - maybe the most important for some products.
Have you in-use data for your application?
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ketchito said:@Leo Organic acids like Benzoic or Sorbic acid work well for this purpose (you can get them as their salts: Sodium benzoate or Potassium sorbate). You can start at 0.3%.
But if you don’t mind using a formaldehyde donor, then Glydant Plus or Liquid Germal Plus are very good broad spectrum preservatives. You can find a lot of literature about them.
Organic acids would be useless in alkaline products, including liquid soap.
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As Perry said, look to those professional entities like CIR and SCCS who detail information and live with their decision. You can alsways find a researcher publishing an affimative opinion of disaster based usually on irrelevant and or bad science.
On the credibility side - SCCS just published this opinion of Propyl parabens. Please note the depth of its consideration. ” SCCS has concluded that propylparaben is safe when used as a preservative in cosmetic products up to a maximum concentration of 0.14 %.” https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/scientific_committees/consumer_safety/docs/sccs_o_243.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0p-PkyKeHFEcUyorfxdteQXrJru35M_f5GhXgAO2iy096yIVavgmggcVo
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Paprik said:I’m really struggling with getting a nice preservative.
I’ve started with Liquid Germall Plus, but I’m afraid some of my customers won’t and don’t like the fact, that it’s formaldehyde donor.
So was looking for something different. I found Euxyl PE 9010. I like it, but the smell is just nah. A new one I tried was Geogard Ultra TM (Gluconolactone (and) Sodium Benzoate (and) Calcium Gluconate), it’s a powder, seems to be super nice and easy to use, but it messes up with my pH. So I tried Microcare DB, seems also nice, it’s EcoCert, BUT the smell! So it’s hard to find one without any smell, “scary” names like Parabens or Formaldehyde and won’t mess up with my products.But as for me, I’m using Liquid Germall Plus the most.
Also thinking about Naticide - but I know there’s a smell to it. And it’s expensive.What do you think about Potassium Sorbate & Sodium Benzoate?
Certainly a wide range of anticipated levels of efficacy in your suggestions - mostly on the poor side. Not knowing the product category -I’ll offer that you should assemble a combination of preservatives (with a chelator like EDTA) that SHOULD work and confirm with PET. None of the sytems you desceibed are likely to be as effective as Germall Plus esp. vs Gram negative bacteria. Organic acids require an appropriately acidic pH and are weak preservatives, esp re. Gram negative bacteria. Natacide is a combination of unidentified (unknown?) “natural” materials. Even if effective - you’re offered no assurance that batch to batch compostions will be identical to that you qualified.
Why not use phenoxyethanol in combination?