PhilGeis
Forum Replies Created
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@Perry
Why not? It’s as valid as the current contrivances. -
@Stanley
Due diligence for companies of this size would not identify this issue for immediate resolution.
SCJ acquired O&A in late 2021 and this was no doubt part of the original sin of the deal. -
@grapefruit22
Correct and plantation development is not politically correct and brings into question of regionally-invasive plants
To the extent they make the claim, it’ll be the same cynical ecocert-like approach used now. They’re advertising/marketing is as amoral as any - they just have microbiologists and toxicologists who constrain the enthusiasm. -
Big cosmetics companies are run by managers from advertising/marketing. They want to convert to the growing natural market.
Until this year (see my comment above) preservatives were a sidelight of big chemical companies - specialty chemical divisions. These are low volume, high-priced commodities chemicals - all out of patent -
FDA recognized the problem in one aspect but does nothing more than publish https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/lam.12995
I’ve served as expert witness in multiple lawsuits over contamination and consulted in technical resolution of others. Always medium-sized guys driven by “priority lists” to weak unstable “natural” systems, made/packed out at other medium sized, less competent guys to a retailer. Contamination and they sue each other.
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btw - my comment above “PCPC has mounted to effective defense re parabens or formaldehyde releasers - phenoxy will find the same ineffective support.”
the “to” was meant to be “no”.
This is typical of what was offered - article in technical press. Nothing funded to reach the public.
Krowka
JF, Loretz L, Geis PA, Davies I. 2017. Preserving the Facts on Parabens Cosmetics
& Toiletries June https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/research/chemistry/Preserving-the-Facts-on-Parabens-An-Overview-of-These-Important-Tools-of-the-Trade-425784294.htmlPublic outreach was left to individuals- I gave talks to FDA and at Science Cafes in Ohio and Florida. Here’s Sylvia Cupferman in EU https://cosmeticobs.com/en/articles/news-34/preservatives-the-cosmetics-industrys-defence-strategy-3707
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Pharma is spot on re that f’ing idiot Darbe. No controls, tissue from some hosp in scotland, parabens in reagent controls never exposed to tissue and about the same level as found in tissue, etc. All her experiment s are designed to prove (rather than test) her chicken little hypotheses.
And the whole “endocrine disruption” for parabens is a technical scam. Orders of magnitude less affinity than estrogen or even phytoestrogens.
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There was a small glimmer of hope with some recent mergers. One, Arxada spin off of Lonza’s biocide business (DMDM H) buying Dow’s Microbial control (Isothiazolinones - Kathons) and Troy’s biocide biz. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352554120305696.
The other is Lanxess (Bayer AG chemical and biocide spin off) buying Emerald Kamala (benzoic, benzyl alcohol). https://lanxess.com/en/Media/Press-Releases/2021/08/LANXESS-completes-acquisition-of-Emerald-Kalama-ChemicalSpoken to managements of both - their objective is preservative development. Trust Arxada more but not much confidence.
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Companies managements - LOreal P&G, Estee etc. were never interested to the point of mounting a public defense. They did invest in looking for new preservatives and that has been useless. The worst was the 3G search funded by every major company, Please read this BS report. It fails to say nothing came from the search. company https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352554120305696
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PCPC has mounted to effective defense re parabens or formaldehyde releasers - phenoxy will find the same ineffective support. Toxicologists, chemists and microbiologists in companies and relevant PCPC committees are not influential for spending - advertising and marketing are,
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Forget it.
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Right - the scare mongering.
CIR is a professional, largely academic group of unbiased scientists. They’re not about to engage in any promotion.
Industry - PCPC - has totally butchered its response since Darbre opened the sewer outlet. -
EWG is a lucrative tool of the clean natural cosmetic marketing. Why would there be a backlash? Doubtful many consumers get even in the shalllow weeds of EWG and bet many that do are looking to confirm the wisdom of their choice. To that, CIR’s conclusions that a material is safe-in-use just not sensational enough.
Don’t know consumer acceptance of EWG. Noteworthy- this year for the 1st time, P&G advertising blew off its technical folks and got in bed with EWG clowns for one shampoo formula. -
Efficacy is on you.
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CIR and consumer friendly toxicology? Perhaps read CIR summaries - they offer safety-in-use specific ranges and context for formulators. Consumers will not know concentrations
EWG is given to the amateur and meaningless color-coded assessment so readily exploited by the scare mongers. Please remember. EWG is a business, selling its endorsements at least formerly for a piece of the action. -
Natural preservative performance is generally garbage.
Folk concerned with the bogus claims of clean beauty/natural/etc. might find this article of interest.
https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1239&context=wmblr -
Chevron? Poor farmers? How heartbreaking. Such ethos!
Scare mongering has indeed established the dishonest marketing as norm - witness “natural” preservatives. As Mark commented, cynical marketing of this type continues with “more natural” formulations. For these the degree of “natural” relies how many synthetic ingredients some self-appointed 3rd party defined as “natural”. -
I continue to be amazed that (very likely) good and honest people seek and recommend as natural materials they clearly know to be synthetic as long as some self-appointed group says it’s ok.
The amorality of fooling the rubes, who want to be fooled, confounds - but cosmetics are sold in promises - this one just more bogus. -
Mark -could you just stick with selling “natural” by contrivance or at least be succinct in your version of pedantry?
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There are many if you drop the pretense of protecting the user. How will you qualify?
Mark - please relate the efficacy data that would support that system
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Consumer desires are driven by advertising and that in our discussion is trickery - we know it has no substnace but so appeal to ego or scare monger. For claims we discuss here, consumers will see no benefit for repeat purchase so advertising and claims become propaganda.
Also note retailer priority chemical lists - those aren’t just trickery - they’re mandates. Think Sephora - bet one can find some of the crappiest preservative systems on their shelves.Not sure innovation is a good term for this matter. Stretch goals - a new definition of natural? The concept of “commercial innovation” of a company I know seems more appropriate. Here, a product was sold with added phrase - the addition bringing an effective endorsement. E.g. X Laundry Detergent with Y. Y was another well known brand establishing cache but ineffective in X even if present (in some countries, there was no Y added).
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Adding lye to pine tar?
What is your recipe? Think pine tar is an additive to the oils/lard and then saponified. -
I understand Mark. All the sustainable organic vegan etc. is meaningless marketing designed to serve the general cosmetic objective - let/make folks feel good about themselves.
Trick? Chemophobia didn’t come from consumers - it came from marketers. The relevant market segment didn’t burst on the scene. It grew slowly as marketers pushed the scare mongering. -As for trickery - consider misleading if not dishonest “natural” claims - clearly is intended to trick consumers.I’d not care - cosmetics are sold on that trickery. But it drives the market to poor to ineffective preservation of no reliable efficacy and I know folks are getting hurt.
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You cater to their ignorance and do it successfully. The suckers are worth 50 billion a year.
These have no substance whatever your clients do.But please remember, the discussion was regarding “natural” and the dishonesty associated with it. The mythical stuff above is honestly silly but very lucrative. Carry on.
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Right - virtue signaling is the story - nothing more and the ego more important than anything. The product may be garbage but it fits values? Nothing more than BS for renewable/sustainable, containers are not recycled. Now it’s organic - agree natural is BS?
All that is the consumer’s call - let’s not pretend they have any real substance.