[Pharma]

ngarayeva001 said:

…whether anything can be don to fix it.

Degas in an ultrasound bath .

Just received mine last week! Going to use it to degas water and try to make micro/nanoemulsions (and obviously clean my stuff). Anyway, pigments contain a lot of air and this one can gas out if the particles aren’t smashed fast enough. Mixing with a blender or similar liberates air earlier during the dispersion (also, less air is incorporated because the pigments are “sucked” slowly but continuously into the suspension) and gets displaced sooner whilst manual dispersing often leaves small crumbs and mini-bubbles on them. Hence, a later “foaming” can be observed. Dunno if my explanation is understandable???

[Pharma]

Are you saying that you’re trying to mix bleach with hydrogen peroxide or that you want to make a skin bleaching solution containing hydrogen peroxide?

Depending on the furnisher, hydrogen peroxide is sold with a small addition of stabiliser (usually not enough to be put on the label but sometimes enough to show up in the MSDS). A common base for cosmetic/pharmaceutical use is phosphoric acid which may or may not be complemented with other ingredients for increased stability or corrosion inhibition (like nitrates), other stabilisers are stannates, pyrophosphates, organophosphates, or colloidal silicate. Pure (i.e. non-stabilised) hydrogen peroxide solutions are very unstable and may decay within hours even in the fridge. Stabilised ones remain stable for years at room temperature given certain conditions (meaning, it depends with what you mix them and under exclusion of light).

Iron salts/ions are your worst enemy followed by oxidisable organic matter, mix hydrogen peroxide with these and you’ve lost the game. The main effects of above mentioned stabilisers are pH control and iron sequestration.

For more help. do what @Perry proposed, share your formula.

[Pharma]

For my hair, glucosides (in mixtures) are great and sulfates are bad (I have no problem with sulfates per se)! Just saying, there is no “good” or “bad”, there simply is something for you as there is something for me and it’s probably not the same because all hair/humans are different.

[Pharma]

Do you mean something like THIS?

[Pharma]

Cst4Ms4Tmps4 said:

…
- 1% Trimethylglyine can emulsify 0.5% Salicylic Acid
- Not sticky
- Can reduce stickiness (of other ingredients)
- Superior to all surfactants and emulsifiers
- Superior to Glycerol (40% improvement in hydration as opposed to only 6%)
- True osmolyte
- Excellent spreading
…

Just a short answer for now, rest for later:

- It’s not an emulsifier and salicylic acid doesn’t need (if solubilised) or can’t use (if crystalline) an emulsifier either.

- Stickyness depends on the mixture.

- Reduced stickyness also depends on the mixture. I use it in a hair moisturiser and it’s really nice, no stick or greasiness, just healthier, less dry and “lusher” looking/feeling hair (if that can even be possible with my scarcer getting hair).

- Trimethylglycine aka glycine betaine is often referred to as betaine. Hence the confusion with betaine surfactants. TMB is a small molecule which forms a so called inner salt, one end of the molecule “reacts” with the other end, giving each one part of a salt on either side. It’s very small and super water soluble, no long oil-soluble chain or anything, no surfactancy at all.

- I don’t know if it’s better than glycerol but I like it.

- Sure, it’s an osmolyte, one of the best. But urea, glycerol, trehalose, choline, and many other compounds are osmolytes as well.

- Spreading? It’s fully water soluble, it spreads like any salt dissolved in water i.e. solutions of it spread like water. Probably another confusion with betaine surfactants?

The TMG I use is food grade, super cheap and commonly derived from beet root or sugarcane molasses. It’s basically the same as cosmetic grade, just a tick better than cosmetic grade . Like myself using some of my food additive for cosmetics you can also “recycle” it (eat it) shouldn’t you be happy with its performance in cosmetics (I wouldn’t do the opposite and eat cosmetic grade). They always say it’s 100% pure but since it’s food/cosmetic grade, they are allowed to do that even if it’s probably just >90% (don’t know above which % it’s regarded as pure as long as nothing else has been added on purpose and/or after isolation/purification/synthesis). In cosmetics, stuff of 40% is sometimes called “pure” and the INCI name implies a pure substance whereas it’s a complete mess. Anyway, TMG is easily obtained from agricultural byproducts (crystal sugar refining) as a highly pure substance.

Another similar compound is choline chloride or hydrogentartrate but these are derived by petrochemical synthesis. Especially choline chloride stinks like rotten fish, is a lot more hygroscopic, and choline is sometimes forbidden in cosmetics (Canada) because nobody knows why it’s forbidden. In principle, I like choline more (as food additive and for other stuff) but its smell is hard to cover. Even betaine can have a slight fishy smell but it’s easily neutralised.

Gotta run, fire up the BBQ, wife is getting hungry!

[Pharma]

Organic? Define “organic”!

If you go by Swiss organic standards then there is no such ting as an organic surfactant, there is not even organic cosmetics because cosmetics aren’t good for nature no matter how sustainable they have been produced. Planting acres upon acres for beauty and shine whilst people on this planet are dying from famine… Think about it!

According to other less strict standards, soap would be okay.

Oh, just remembered: Soapnuts and other saponin containing plants .

Most surfactants these days are vegan BTW. I’ve only came across a very few modified tallow derivatives (not necessarily surfactants) whilst lanilin, egg yolk, and carmine aren’t commonly used to produce surfactants, apart from these I can’t think of other +/- common animal products for cosmetics or I’m too tired right now.

On the other hand, organic in a scientific/chemical sense would include all existing commercial surfactants (even silicones because these also contain carbon).

[Pharma]

There’s more than one Polawax. It also depends on the composition of the oil phase of your emulsion and on the water phase too…

The answer is “Yes it can be a good emulsifier” if you choose your o/w emulsion to fit the emulsifier or “No it’s unlikely” if your emulsion isn’t compatible with your emulsifier.

[Pharma]

I see you did some real deep meditation and have consulted with the ghosts of Einstein, Curie and consortium :smiley: .

Regarding “shielding”: What you show is the part about bridging . Maybe try to imagine magnets instead of electrons?

Why do you use sodium bicarbonate instead of sodium hydroxide? Don’t you worry about bubbles?

Why do you still want to quench it all? There is no point in adding acids to the point where you could capture all ammonium (ammonia?) produced through urea decomposition. I thought I explained that in detail…. probably too much detail and derail to do any good LoL.

I can see (or rather assume) why your cocktail doesn’t dry out that easily and it’s not just deliquescence. Mix the right stuff at the right proportions and, like honey, solids become liquid. The proportions don’t have to be perfect especially if you add water. You could play with it a bit more. Because I don’t know how much bicarbonate you add, it’s hard to tell (it’s hard anyway because there is no possibility to accurately calculate multi-component mixtures). What might give your cocktail a boost is glycine betaine aka trimethylglycine. My excel table comes up with about 7% for a “perfect” mix if no bicarbonate has been added… but then again, this is a rough estimation which doesn’t have to manifest itself in real life, 7% TMG is a lot for a skincare product, and it’s not necessarily doing anything good either way. And on the other hand there’s the point that such liquids tend to be tacky/syrupy and need a few minutes longer for resorption but in the end penetrate skin more efficient than “normal” aqueous solutions.

You could probably switch MCT for coco caprylate or Dermofeel Sensolve?

If you like your Tween 20, you might want to add some Span (e.g. sorbitol stearate or other low HLB emulsifier). This lets you calculate HLB; my MCT should have an HLB requirement of 7, coco caprylate requires 9 and isoamyl laurate 12 whilst Tween 20 has an HLB of 16,7, hence your issues with emulsification. In addition to that, combined emulsifiers are usually more stable, versatile, and forgiving. BTW, calculated mixtures of Tweens and Spans are really idiot proof when it comes to calculating HLBs for stability (this is probably because the HLB system has been invented/developed based on observations with mixtures of Tweens and Spans).

[Pharma]

vjay said:

hi anybody can help

@chemicalmatt already did. He proposed using a “pigment dispersion aid” (dunno if there is a proper name for this). There’s a bunch of such compounds available which also tend to be well suited for sunscreen dissolution, you just have to search for them if you don’t like Cetiol AB.

[Pharma]

IMHO most plant extracts (except oils) are purely claim ingredients in rinse out formulations (and probably in the majority of all other cosmetic products too) and I never understood why bamboo should be in a haircare product other than reminding people of springy healthy green sticks swinging happily in the wind without breaking like the wonderful long hair you’re dreaming of having one day. And that awful perfume they always add to those products which is supposed to smell of “bamboo” (like “alp freshness” or “sea-breeze” perfumes can only smell of mountains or the beach to people who’ve never been there).

[Pharma]

Docaashu said:

…
My question here to experts in chemistry is that - “Can any formulation be prepared which is slightly acidic (pH 6-7 at par with pH of skin) with good cleansing property ?” (good for skin and hairs)

Yes, it can and it’s done on a regular basis, just not with soaps in sensu stricto but with syndets (which aren’t often “synthetic” anymore but products of fermentation or enzymatic reactions and based on renewable resources).

[Pharma]

It’s hygroscopic, it might even clump if customers don’t use the whole mask at once. You have to seal it hermetically.

These biotech-peptides are usually used at much lower concentrations (probably they’re just pixie dust).

[Pharma]

You could but it would make bubbles because of the reaction of bicarbonate with acid.

For cleaning, sodium carbonate is usually employed since it’s high pH (unlike pH neutral bicarbonate). This helps removing fats and oils. If that is not needed, there is no need for high pH and you can avoid sodium (bi-)carbonate addition.

You sure you added sodium bicarbonate (usually for eating/cooking) and not sodium carbonate (usually for cleaning)? Some of their colloquial names are identical (e.g. natron) .

[Pharma]

Isn’t there a thread already about that topic?

IIRC bottom line was that it’s a marketing term aka misnomer.

[Pharma]

@ngarayeva001 If it stinks real bad, then it was likely thioglycolate.

[Pharma]

Lindsey1009 said:

…
10% grams Illite Clay
15% grams Benonite clay
15% french green clay
10% Oat powder

5% kelp powder
10% honey powder
5% ginseng powder
5% mugwort powder
10% green tea powder
6% Macha powder
3% HLA powder
3% B5 powder
2% Peptide powder
1% aloe powder

French green clay is mostly montmorillonite, bentonite contains about 60-80% montmorillonite. Apart from marketing, I don’t see the advantage of adding both.

Kelp powder will not do anything. It requires too much time to hydrate and liberate its ingredients. You might want to consider adding a kelp extract instead.

Ginseng powder: Not as recalcitrant to water extraction than kelp but nearly as bad… got the same recommendation than there.

Mugwort powder: Like with all plant powders, it is best extracted with hot water. Some actives might still come out when mixed with cold or lukewarm water. Again the same recommendation than above.

Macha (which is by definition a fine powder) is just a variety of green tea which has been milled to a finer degree (most cells are crushed). Since you want your actives to get into solution ASAP after customers add water, I’d go with macha (it will be the only plant powder which will really release its active constituents). From a $$$ point of view, you’re better off with green tea powder. These two are rich in caffeine (poorly soluble in cold water) and catechines. The latter might give a “tightening” effect (like leather tanning).

B5 is usually pantothenic acid and hence not a powder but a syrupy liquid. Calcium panthotenate would be a salt.

Aloe powder: What kind of aloe powder? Some qualities might clump badly if customers add water in a non-professional manner.

What is peptide powder (too generic name)?

[Pharma]

I would say that parabens at a pH of 13 will definitely hydrolyse (= degrade).

Also, vitamin E as tocopheryl acetate will hydrolyse forming tocopherol; that one becomes highly sensitive to oxygen at a pH of 13 and will work too good for too short. IMHO just drop it.

In addition to that, lanolin will also hydrolyse but somewhat slower. Like making cold processed soap. This will change your formula over time (days to weeks). Does it get better or worse? I don’t know. It might increase in stability or it might decrease in feel due to formation of alkali soap or increase in conditioning due to formation of fatty alcohols (similar to cetyl alcohol). Because of too much uncertainty and not much of an obvious contribution, I wouldn’t add it.

Emulsifying wax: Do you have the INCI names for your product? Emulsifying wax can be a lot of things. Given your high pH, even normal beeswax will turn into emulsifying wax .

Propylene glycol: Why 2.5%? What good does that do? Reminds me a bit of homoeopathy.

[Pharma]

@crillz It’s actually THAT one. Was cheaper with better customer rating…

Ran it against fresh calibration solution, pH strips (the ones with a bunch of small colour squares), and a temp meter. Values seemed correct. EC I still have to check.

For a pH meter, it’s relatively easy to calibrate.

On the other hand, I wouldn’t use it in a lab for enzymatic assays or if used on a daily basis (it would probably break soon due to exhaustion). Originally got it because I mix my own fertilisers and for that purpose it’s more than enough .

[Pharma]

If there is a perfect drug/medicinal plant, then it would be curcumin/turmeric. It literally does everything beneficial and nothing harmful, no matter which in vitro test you run and we are talking thousands of different tests and hundreds of publications (I know a guy who probably read all of them, though it was about 10 years ago). Whatever has been done, all and really all was positive, it’s close to a miracle (if you ignore the fact about it colouring everything yellow)!

Since there aren’t too many miracles these days, curcumin is not one of these ;( . There is a slight drawback to its fairytale story: Curcumin only affects the uppermost cell layers and is hence only useful on contact (like wounds) and more than 99% of all in vitro studies show zip effect in vivo. It’s super safe though and, as a fun fact, has the E number 100.

[Pharma]

@Doreen Okay then!

BTW hibiscus extract is usually acidic . Salicylic acid is a weird thing because of the phenolic group just a carbon atom further away than the acid. This stabilises the acid; hence increased oil solubility and reduced interactions with other products. Regarding ammonium/potassium glycyrrhizate: it is pH sensitive and at low pH turns from a common “salt” into an emulsifier. That it gells is new to me (thanks for that tip!) but not astonishing given it’s related to sterols.

[Pharma]

Smart people EAT it .

In cosmetics, biotin does nothing but boost the label. Since it is water soluble, using it in powdered form does fine.

[Pharma]

Ginger is a related species and it is anti-inflammatory (wrote my PhD thesis about that ).

On Sri Lanka they tried to sell us turmeric oil for hair removal… I wouldn’t know why curcumin should result in a lighter skin, yellow for sure but lighter??? BTW curcumin is so extremely lipophilic that it literally sticks to the uppermost 1-2 cell layers. Even oral bioavailability is close to zero. The only in vivo effects you get from curcumin are on the mucosa (= intestinal tract).

[Pharma]

@Doreen (I’m going to read the rest later, just an answer to the first, important passage): Sorry, exceptionally bad phrasing on my behalf! Yea, I was even thinking about intoxications when I wrote it and I know that even healthy people died from topical salicylate ODs .

What I meant was “very effective skin penetration (so effective that it can have unwanted systemic effects)”. Sorry again for the bad phrasing!

[Pharma]

Doreen said:

…
And those before and after pictures in manufacturer’s leaflets. Do they use laser treatment instead of their own ‘actives’ or something?

They probably just switch the before and after pics .

[Pharma]

Yes, it is a blend. The exact % of each ingredient in there is a trade secret.