OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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All ingredients legally allowed in cosmetic products are “clean” and non-toxic when used at allowed levels.
And nearly all ingredients could be considered “toxic” at high enough levels. For example, you mention Decyl Glucoside, but did you know it has an LD50 (the lethal dose to kill 50% of a population) of 2000 mg / kg of animal? From that perspective, decyl glucoside is toxic.
Perhaps you could clarify a little more specifically what you mean by “clean”?
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I’ll keep trying to find the full study but even if that were the case, using 10 times as much Glycerin is still cheaper & more effective than HA which costs at least 60 - 100 times more.
Glycerin = $2.6 / pound
HA = $177 / pound
(from https://www.makingcosmetics.com/) Although at the company I worked for we could get glycerin for $0.60 a pound. -
The best you can get without bleaching are these temporary hair colors.
Without bleaching, all you can do is to cover up the dark hair color and to do that you can only do it with temporary dyes.
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I couldn’t find a study specifically comparing Glycerin and Hyaluronic acid but this paper looked at how glycerin, HA and a silicone performed as moisturizers.
http://www.e-ajbc.org/m/journal/view.php?number=640
1. Glycerin was more moisturizing than HA - “the cream including both glycerin and silicone oil showed the highest moisturizing value and the longest holding time of hydration. The second on the result was the cream containing both hyaluronic acid and silicone oil, followed by the glycerin cream, hyaluronic acid cream and silicone oil cream.”
2. Glycerin was superior for TEWL - “the cream including both glycerin and silicone oil showed the most decreased value of TEWL and the longest holding time. The second on the result was the cream with both hyaluronic acid and silicone oil, followed by the silicone oil cream, the glycerin cream and the hyaluronic acid cream.”
Now, this is only one study and I’ve only seen the abstract, but without evidence to the contrary, I don’t know how hold the belief that HA is superior to glycerin. This study shows glycerin is superior to HA and there are no competing studies to show the opposite.
A belief in the superiority of HA over glycerin is not supported by science (at least that I could find).
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Thank you for all the responses. It’s at least got me thinking.
@ngarayeva001 - I overlooked the gel possibilities, so congratulations, you’ve changed my view…a little bit. :smiley:
I appreciate the car analogy, but that is more of an emotional argument than a scientific one. Also, the way the analogy breaks down is, as you point out, there are measurable things a consumer would notice as different between a Mazeratti and a Corolla.
Beyond feel differences of the raw materials (which can be formulated around) a consumer would not notice any obvious differences between a formula with HA vs Glycerin.
But you have made some claims which could be measured.
1. “will form a film and reduce TEWL” - Ideally, to support this you could show a study comparing TEWL readings of Glycerin vs HA. I found this study which concluded repeated used of a high level of Glycerin does not impact TEWL.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1467-2494.2001.00060.x
I searched Google Scholar but couldn’t find a study to demonstrate an increase in TEWL using Hyaluronic acid.2. “HA that is absorbed into the epidermis functions in a similar fashion to native HA in the extracellular matrix” - What are these functions and how is it different than what glycerin is doing in the epidermis?
3. “…much more powerful humectant.” - Perhaps it’s true that it absorbs more water per molecule of HA but then you just increase the amount of glycerin (at a much lower cost) to compensate. There isn’t a humectancy rate that you can achieve with HA that you can’t achieve with Glycerin. At least, not that I could find.
I opened this discussion as a “Change my view” so I don’t want it to seem like my opinion is unchangeable. It is changeable, but no one has presented any science-based studies to support the use of HA over glycerin as a performance ingredient in a topical skin care product. -
@ngarayeva001 - certainly HA costs more to make, but since it is perceived as a premium ingredient by consumers & cosmetic marketers, raw material manufacturers can get a much bigger profit despite the extra costs. So production costs figure in only a little bit.
No raw material maker would want to get into the glycerin making business because glycerin is a commodity with razor thin profit margins. Conversely, lots of raw material makers would get into the HA business because you can make more money.
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What do you want the cream to do?
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Your question isn’t detailed enough to give a good answer. What oil?
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@MarkBroussard - I agree it’s part of the NMF and certainly within living cells hyaluronic acid does things that glycerin doesn’t do. It’s a molecule produced by cells and involved in metabolism.
But when delivered topically from a skin care product, what specifically does Hyaluronic acid do that glycerin doesn’t do? Consider whatever grade would do the most different thing.
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@Gunther - perhaps I’m missing something but the study you linked was a description of a chromatography method used to quantify solutions of panthenol. How is this related to hair or how does it show that hair absorbs panthenol? I didn’t see anywhere that hair was mentioned.
It wouldn’t surprise me that your study of panthenol dissolved in water showed you some effect when you tried it. What I am suggesting is that any effect you would see from panthenol in a product like a shampoo or conditioner would be completely dwarfed by the effect you would get from the surfactants, the silicones or the cationic polymers.
If you did an experiment where you had a conditioner like Pantene & you made one sample with panthenol and one without, you wouldn’t be able to tell any difference. I’ve done this experiment & couldn’t tell any difference.
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Of course, that depends on what you mean by “healthier hair.”
Hair is dead tissue and can be no healthier than a shoelace.If you mean leave “hair in good condition” then I’d agree with @Gunther and would add cationic surfactants to the list of rinse-off products. I would disagree about panthenol however. I find the scientific support for the benefits of panthenol in hair products to be dubious. I think it’s a hyped up claims ingredient with little to no measurable effect.
What study convinces you @Gunther?
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@ngarayeva001 - I don’t have a signature ingredient but I do have a “signature” in my formulations. Whenever I make a formula I like to include some ingredient at a level of 0.44%
The 44 is my signature & a lot of VO5 and Tresemme formulas that I left behind had ingredients with a 44 somewhere in the formula. I’m sure they’ve all been changed now, but you could always tell a Romanowski formula.
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Everyone needs a signature ingredient. 😉
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@ngarayeva001 - you could actually reverse engineer without a list of ingredients. In that case you would have to characterize the product in terms of performance, and other measurable qualities like viscosity, pH, appearance, odor, etc. It’s a bit harder but you don’t need to know the exact ingredients to “knock off” an existing product.
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No, it is not broad spectrum. It is barely a preservative.
No, it won’t preserve something for a year. -
If you’re interested, I think these are the modules that @mikethair is referring to. ASEAN Cosmetics Guidelines
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@ozgirl - we added the dye first because it is easy to make a mistake in measuring powdered color. After adding the dye we did a color check against a standard. If the color didn’t match we could discard the water and start again. That’s a lot more costly to do once the detergents have been added.
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I think the order would be…
1. Water
2. Dye
3. Citric acid
4. SLES
5. CAPB
6. LABSA
7. Fragrance
8. NaOH
9. Sodium chlorideBut this is just a guess. This is essentially the order of addition that we did when making shampoo.
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@AutumnBlum - we don’t have such a course but if we were to make one, what are some of the key subjects you would like to learn about?
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You will get no measurable effect from using oats in shampoo. At best, you’ll get a moisturizing effect when used in conditioner. It is a gimmick, marketing ingredient. Not something that serious formulators would rely on to show an effect.
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You’ll need to give a complete list of ingredients in your formula to get any useful advice.
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@cheekychooky - You can make a new post or add on to this one. Whichever you prefer.
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Looks like you’re endeavoring to make a hair conditioner.
Other commenters are right though, it really helps if you include INCI names rather than trade names.
Also, while some people can come off as sounding rude, I would encourage you to ignore that kind of thing and give people the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are not meant to be combative. Communicating via text is very difficult and sometimes people read meaning into statements that weren’t actually meant.
thanks again for posting your question.
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What is the capsaicin supposed to be doing in the product?
How would a consumer tell that it was doing it?