OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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@Bobzchemist and anyone else who’s interested. I set up a deal with Prospector that if use Chemists Corner as your company name when you register they will approve you.
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Did you do a salt curve analysis? Also, what is your pH range?
For the fragrance you probably need a solubilizer like Polysorbate 20. -
I think any research in which we could definitively determine a connection between what consumers like and some characteristic of a cosmetic formula would be great to know.
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I think any research in which we could definitively determine a connection between what consumers like and some characteristic of a cosmetic formula would be great to know.
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This is a little off-subject but the comment above inspired me.
@David08848 - I would agree that we should continue to safety test and be open to new discoveries of harm. We also have to be able to decide when enough evidence is collected. What evidence would someone need to believe that parabens are safe to use? For many people there is nothing that will convince them. It would be great to create an organization dedicated to ensuring products are safe. It just needs to be science-based, not ideologically based.
“Yes, we and the Earth are all made up of chemicals but those occur in nature. It’s when we decide to manipulate these natural chemicals that the possibility of creating something harmful can occur.” This is known as the Naturalistic Fallacy and should not be the basis for deciding whether a product is safe or not.There are lots of things that occur in nature which are terrible for the Earth, other animals, and people. Snake venom did not require a human to create it nor did the botulism poison. In fact, the most dangerous things on the planet occur in nature.Most chemicals that are synthesized were never encountered by our bodies during evolution. So there are no biochemical pathways for our bodies to chemically interact with them. The ingredients just pass through our body with little to no effect.There are certainly synthetic compounds that are dangerous but as a general rule whether something is synthetic or natural is no indication of whether it will be safe to use. In fact, I’d err on the side that if something is natural it is more likely to be harmful than something synthetic. -
I’m not sure that this is a scientific question. It’s more of an aesthetic question.
The primary purpose of these cleansing bars is to clean the skin. Both soap and syndet bars will do that. You could do a lab test to see which cleans better but for most purposes the only thing that matters is what consumers think cleans better. I’d say consumers would generally have a tough time determining whether a syndet bar or soap bar cleans skin better so it’s really a wash (pun intended).But consumers like their skin to feel good and when it comes to irritation the reality is that syndet bars based on something like Isethionate are more mild than Soap. Read this chapter. Syndet bars are superior here.Syndet bars can also be made to foam in all types of water where soap doesn’t foam as well in hard water. So syndet bars are superior here.Like I said, it is not really a scientific question but based on what I think makes a product that consumers would want to use, syndet bars win. -
Lots of chemists to work with here.
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Hello to all our new members. It’s great to see people from around the world!
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@David08848 - Thanks. If it didn’t come through in my post, I agree this would be excellent information to find out if we could.
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@David08848 - It’s a challenging project you propose because it is a complicated question and might go beyond what science can even answer.
Before even attempting to answer the question we would have to first narrow down what you mean by “are chemicals harmful?” Without being more specific the answer is both Yes and No for any substance you can imagine.If all people can’t agree (or at least most people) on what it means for something to be harmful I don’t see how we could ever answer the question. -
Thanks for the clarification. I’m just not sure that type of research has ever been done, or at least it hasn’t been published.
It would be extremely difficult to have an answer however since the differences would be slight and may not be detectable based on the technology we have available in the cosmetic industry. It is hard enough to show a difference in the moisturizing effect of two different formulas. Determining any noticeable difference in the barrier effect between emulsifiers in a formula seems nearly impossible based on evaluation techniques today.But that’s just my opinion. I’d be happy to see what other people have to say. -
Yeah, we’d at least need an ingredient list. But Guar is not a likely culprit
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Interesting suggestion. That is just a really difficult one to investigate because the answer already exists. The non-industry funded, independent, EU Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety has determined that there is no connection between parabens and cancer.The only remaining question is what evidence or how much evidence would convince anyone who believes it is a problem that it isn’t?
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The one problem with storing it as a solid and remelting it is that if you don’t throughly mix it every time you could be pulling out a non-homogenous sample and changing the composition slightly every time.
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See this post we did on the HLB system. Essentially, you have to find out what the required HLB of your oil is and choose a solubilizing ingredient that works in that range.
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Do you know the HLB of the oil your are trying to solubilize?
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Well, I always made a minimum of 400g batches but you might reduce that if you have limited samples. Smaller samples result in much more variability however.
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Here is an example of a blinded test.
Essentially, you create two formulas and three samples. One sample is the odd one out while the other two are exactly the same. You set up a code for each sample so you don’t know which is which while you test. Then you try to pick the two samples that are the same.If you can’t pick the odd one out of the three then you probably don’t have a significant difference. If you can pick the odd one out well, you had a 33% chance of that happening by dumb luck anyway so it doesn’t prove anything. However, it should be encouraging. So you recode and retest to see if you pick the odd sample again. If you can do this a couple times then you can have confidence that there might be some difference. You’ll have to then move to a panel of a few people and see if they can find any difference.Well, that’s the basics of the test anyway. -
Store it in a stability oven set at 75 degrees.
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This is a good plan especially focusing on one product, but in my opinion you are putting the cart before the horse.
This might sound strange coming from a chemist and formulator, but I think the most important thing to do first is create your marketing story, package image, and point of differentiation. Spend your money figuring out who your customer will be and what problem your product will solve for them. Once you figure that out, then go develop your product.The reality is there are plenty of excellent products on the market which no one is buying. And the reason is because there is nothing compelling about the marketing story to inspire someone to buy the product. Some very successful cosmetic brands used standard, private label formulations.As to your questions -1. Yes, you should work with a cosmetic chemist consultant when you’re ready for formulation work. You’ll need to spend your time working on your product marketing.2. At first, this will probably be your biggest expense. I would add marketing development to your cost.3. Put together a sell sheet and show them sales proof. Yes, talk to the buyer. You’ll have to sell them on why your product is unique and demonstrate that you already have sales to justify them taking a risk.4. Look to other brands for inspiration (e.g. http://www.yestocarrots.com/) Their products and formulations are nothing great. In fact, they are inferior in terms of performance and experience compared to things put out by P&G, but their marketing story and point of differentiation set them apart. You can be very successful with mediocre products. You can also be a complete failure with the best formulations on the planet. Marketing makes all the difference. -
@Bobzchemist - one answer could be that they are trying to formulate natural and the easiest chelating agents to use EDTA are not allowed.
But I agree with everything said thus far.If your question was when to add it to a formula (as in when in the batch process is it added) we always added it as one of the first ingredients. Generally, powders should be added first to give them adequate time to go into solution. -
Great points!
You’ve got to narrow down your choices and start with as few ingredients as possible. Then you can build on your prototypes based on things that the initial ingredients are lacking. VO5 shampoo made a lot of money selling a simple SLS / Betaine formula.I would say start with 1 surfactant and see how it feels. Then add another.Also, be sure to blind your testing. If you really want to end up with the best result you have to reject your hunches and feelings. Only through blind testing can you get this. -
Sure, post away.
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I haven’t used the base that you are talking about but in general I avoid base blends because it gives you less control over your formulation. It also locks you in to a single supplier which can cause problems in the future.
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I think the Honest Company is a fear based marketer who, ironically, is producing less safe products due to artificial restrictions they put on their formulators.
Consumers should stick to standard cosmetics and OTC products and stay away from any company that claims or implies their products are more safe. They are lying.For the curious, here is the Forbes article.