Perry44
Forum Replies Created
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If you put an ingredient in your formula on purpose for some specific reason you should list it. There is no lower limit where if you are below it you don’t have to list the ingredient. That’s made up.
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When formulating, it’s always advisable to start out with as few ingredients as you can. If you’re looking for hold the key ingredient will be PVP. I’d start with 4% and look to reduce it if the hold is too stiff.
I don’t see a lot of reason to have both Glycerin and Propanediol. I’d just use the Propanediol.
I don’t like having Citric Acid in a Carbomer system as it can break your viscosity. You also likely don’t need it although you may to reduce the pH.
I’d start simple. Water, PVP, Cetearyl alcohol, Carbomer, Triethanolamine, preservative and see what you get. Then add the Propanediol, hydrolyzed protein, oil if you want.
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Potassium olivate is natural?
What plant produces potassium olivate? Don’t you have to chemically react olive oil in a lab to produce potassium olivate?
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1. Without an ingredient list, that could be a challenging project.
2. With an ingredient list, it shouldn’t be too difficult.
3. Determining whether there are unlisted ingredients, that could be a significant challenge.
As far as any suggestions, I’ll let people in the forum chime in. -
It doesn’t provide any benefit over glycerin & it costs more.
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You’re asking a difficult question because if anyone here knew what the game changer in the cosmetic industry was going to be, we’d already be working on it.
But also, there isn’t much space to innovate in our industry. The Big Problems like wrinkles & hair loss are not problems that can be solved using cosmetics. Those would require some type of drug to really work.
In my opinion, the cosmetic industry is a “mature industry” which means that the products have not changed significantly in the last 30 or 40 years. While there have been subtle, incremental improvements, there haven’t really been any consumer-perceptible differences. I dare say there have been no significant technological innovations in our industry since the 1990’s. People still use shampoos and lotions that look and feel the same as they did in the 1980’s.
The things that pass for innovation in our industry is really just clever marketing stories. If you want to create a game changing innovation, come up with a compelling marketing story.
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You’ll need to provide more information about the specific ingredients in the system. Typically, thickening should happen within a few minutes.
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Generally, there are 4 ingredients considered sulfate surfactants.
They include:
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate,
Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate,
Sodium Laureth Sulfate
Ammonium Laureth Sulfate.All other surfactants are considered “non-sulfates”. There are too many to list but things like Decyl Glucoside, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, or Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate.
If you are avoiding “sulfur” then you’d also want to avoid an ingredient like Sodium Olefin Sulfonate. Anywhere you see the letters “Sulf-“ that means there is sulfur in the molecule.
Of course, there are ingredients that are not surfactants that also include some sulfur like Sulfuric acid, Thioglycolic Acid, Allyl Isothiocyanate, Methionine (an amino acid), etc.
I will note that it is highly unlikely that sulfur is causing your problems. It is a component of every cell in your body and being allergic to it is not really possible. However, sensitivity to Sulfur derivatives is possible. That’s good news because it means that just because a product has some sulfur containing molecule doesn’t mean you will have a reaction.
Ultimately, yes you will have to try different cleansers until you find one that doesn’t cause your reaction.
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An extract will not cover an odor significantly. You need a fragrance specifically designed to do it. Or a strong smelling oil like tea tree oil might work.
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I see no reason consumers should avoid fragrance. The toxicologists at IFRA would agree.
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I’d suggest you read this post about cosmetic ingredient expiration dates.
Expiration dates on food products and ingredients make sense because they have a huge impact both on the taste and the safety of the food. When something goes rancid it has a consumer perceptible impact on taste. But for cosmetic ingredients, expiration dates don’t matter much.
In fact, there really is no formal “expiration date”. It is an arbitrary date that helps keep ingredient sales moving. I think it helps with ingredient marketing, but it doesn’t tell you much about the ingredient.
Here’s the difference. While food ingredient changes make big impacts on the final product, cosmetic ingredient changes often do not.
When you say the components of an oil “will (not) last more than 2.5 years” it’s hard to know exactly what you mean. The primary components of most oils (saturated fatty acids) aren’t going to change in a meaningful way. Palmitic acid & stearic acid are not prone to chemical degradation over time. So, they won’t change significantly even after 10 years.
However, unsaturated fatty acids are prone to oxidation and those can certainly change. But is it a change that will impact the formula? Not always.I’m looking at the fatty acid profile of cranberry seed oil and it looks like it has some Palmitic and Steric acid. In 3 years, this won’t change. But it does have Oleic, Linoleic, and Linolenic acid. These have double bonds which will change. They will oxidize and produce different types of organic molecules which can affect the Viscosity, Melting Point, but most importantly the Color and Odor.
Now, if you are only using 1 or 2% in the formula and other ingredients are having a more significant impact on color and odor, it might not matter if the cranberry seed oil has changed. That’s why you set specifications for things like color and odor and you can retest after some arbitrary point in time.
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Steinberg being feisty as ever! I do agree, preservative free is a bad claim.
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Ah, well if that’s the project. I personally don’t think it is really possible. Our ability to identify individual molecules in formulations is rather limited.
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Correct, it’s all about the claims (for the most part). Petrolatum is also an OTC skin protectant active but it’s used in cosmetic products all the time.
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For duplicating products, I don’t think the specific ingredients matter very much. If you give a good cosmetic chemist a sample of a product and tell them what you want the product to do, they should be able to create something that duplicates the effect. It’s easier to do if you have the ingredient list, but creams, lotions, solutions…consumers are not good at noticing difference between two similar formulas.
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Sounds reasonable. Although, I’m not sure if the preservative will interfere with the Carbomer thickening.
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This discussion demonstrates very clearly the difference between a marketing mindset & a scientific mindset.
To be a successful scientist you spend your time and effort trying to discover what is true. You always must remain open to new data which can make you change your mind. For a scientist no conclusion is 100% definitive. You care about unveiling what is true.
To be a successful marketer you spend your time finding evidence that supports what you believe. Any evidence to the contrary is ignored, dismissed or minimized. You make statements that are definite and leave no room for changing your positions. You are not driven by truth but rather by ideology and for many, by storytelling that will motivate consumers to buy what you’re selling.
Unfortunately, a marketing mindset is much more monetarily successful in our industry. I completely understand how even people with science backgrounds can embrace the marketing mindset.
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There are limits. The two posts prompted a worthwhile discussion so I didn’t take them down. He is also a longtime contributor to the forum & I appreciate his different perspective. But yes too much self promotion without prompting discussion will get removed.
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We just disagree. From my perspective the synthetic detergent you use is not any more natural than Sodium Lauryl Sulfate which is derived from coconut oil. If you were truly natural you would only use saponins as your detergent. I think it’s disingenuous to call your products natural when they only exist due to human induced chemical synthesis.
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No, you couldn’t really get much out of using a mass spec or chromatography. There are just too many different chemicals in a cosmetic product. It’s not like an organic chemistry lab where you would be just looking at a simple solution for specific Hydrocarbon bonds and peaks and things. There could be hundreds of different chemicals in a cosmetic.
For example, when an ingredient is listed as Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, it’s not just SLS. See this blog post on the subject. https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-in-a-cosmetic-ingredient/
Basically, every ingredient used in a cosmetic is a mixture of chemicals, not just a single chemical. So things like mass spec and chromatography are not very helpful in determining exactly what is in a formula.
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How is saponification any more natural than sulfation?
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Ah, well natural oils are all made up of mostly fatty acids. These are classified by the number of Carbons in the molecule and range in number from C8 to C24. Most natural oils have between 12 and 22 Carbon atoms.
Let’s look at Coconut oil.
It is composed of the following.
C8 = 0.23%
C10 = 4.5%
C12 = 55.3%
C14 = 21.8%
C16 = 7.3%
C18 = 3.1%
unsaturated C18 = 4.97%
double unsaturated C18 = 2.1%So, it is mostly C12 and C14 which are Lauric acid and Myristic acids.
Argan oil on the other hand is composed of the following.C16 = 16.5%
C18 = 4.2%
unsaturated C18 = 45%
double unsaturated C18 = 35%If you blended coconut oil and argan oil together in equal ratios you would have approximately the following fatty acid distribution.
C10 = 2.2%
C12 = 27.5%
C14 = 10.9%
C16 = 12.1%
C18 = 3.7%
unsaturated C18 = 25.5%
double unsaturated C18 = 18.5%So, you want to find an oil that has that fatty acid distribution. It will then work the same.
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They most likely use encapsulation for the retinol. Then just put it in the wax. Since consumers really can’t tell if it works or not, it’s just a claims ingredient.
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I agree. That’s a pretty good starting point.
Although you might want to look at the fatty acid distribution of all the oils and then pick one (maybe not even one currently in the formula) that overlaps better.
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Based on that logic, since you are (or were) a seller of fragrance free products, shouldn’t your opinion be similarly dismissed? Wouldn’t your salary be harmed if the opposite of what you claim is true?