[Paprik]

Graillotion said:

Paprik 

Best alternative to Zinc PCA? … Sodium PCA Apparently there is synergistic effect when used with Sodium Hyaluronate/Hyaluronic acid.

Mixing Sodium PCA with HA provides what kind of synergy?  Humectancy? Other?  I am curious.  I use both, but not always in the same formula.

Yeah, I guess in humectancy. This is from my book from IPCS

Sodium PCA - Highest performing of all humectants; high end cosmeceutical products (expensive); synergistic effect with sodium hyaluronate. 

I will try to google it also, just to check it out. Might be interesting aye? 

[Paprik]

I haven’t seen any in-vivo efficacy data to prove that 10% would be more beneficial than 5%. Remember - The more active, the bigger risk for irritation. Also the cost of the product goes up.
The Ordinary has 10% B3, but again, why? I think 5% should be the top. 
Second remember - More does not need better. Some actives work at super low concentrations. 

Best alternative to Zinc PCA? … Sodium PCA Apparently there is synergistic effect when used with Sodium Hyaluronate/Hyaluronic acid.

[Paprik]

Anti-irritants, such as Allantoin.

[Paprik]

@Perry, would you know what would be sufficient input of Panthenol to have any benefits? I really thought that 5% would do a lot. 

[Paprik]

Niacinamide handles lower pH. (3.5 - 7.5)

[Paprik]

Yes, you can.

EDTA (or chelating agents) should not be used only when cationic emulsifier is used. 
The charge from Cocamidopropyl betaine (below pH7) is nothing to compare to cationic emulsifiers. Same goes for Polyquats, guar derivatives … 

[Paprik]

Perfectly said @Graillotion. 

To put it also in another way, imagine those things
Gum, polymer = net
Emulsifier = trap

So emulsifier traps all the oil droplets and prevents them from clumping back together. Where the gum net prevents those emulsified droplets from moving. So they stay put -> harder for them to clump again. This means you get the best stability. Some rheology modifiers (gum, polymers) are better, some worse. Some can stabilize bigger particles, some won’t stabilize those at all. 

So your formula should look similar to this for O/W emulsion:
Water
Humectant - preferably
Water compatible rheology modifier
Lipid
High HLB non-ionic emulsifier (preferable blend for better packing)
(Also good to have a little bit of anionic emulsifier, but if you’re using salt, no point)
Antioxidant (if required)
Chelating agent - preferably
Preservative
+ added extras, such as extracts, fragrance, actives etc … 

[Paprik]

I wanted to post this yesterday, but ran out of time. @ketchito already mentioned that. EU is more “relaxed”, haha. 

[Paprik]

You should not use 3 rheology modifiers. They will only “ball” on the skin and feel terrible. You can stick to Sepimax Zen, this one is electrolyte resistant. However, it does take time to properly hydrate. So method is crucial - You would add that to a water with preservative and stir properly. It will look clumpy. Leave it overnight (or several hours) to properly swell. The next day you can mix it and start you process. Low shear only.
(Other gums are ok with high shear)

You are also missing antioxidant. Grapeseed oil does easily oxidise, so your cream would not last long time. 

Hope that helps  

[Paprik]

Thanks guys. For all comments. Appreciated.  

The main problem is that she is spreading this incorrect information and confuses people. That’s what drives me crazy. People are asking for help and they get lies. 

[Paprik]

Thank you guys. Thanks for you. I was hoping @perry would answer, as you live in US right? And you have the most experiences. 

I seriously have no much energy left trying to convince people, when they are so stubborn. 

May I have one more question? About this, I’m not sure at all. 
If the product is named “Aloe Vera Soap”, does it need to contain certain amount of Aloe or is it also not regulated? 

[Paprik]

It depends.
Yes, it can if you’re formulating for very dry or sensitive skin. It will not clean as good as anionic surfactant, so if you’re formulating for oily skin type, that won’t be suitable. 

You need to give it a try and see how it goes.

Most of CAPB are coming as 30% dilution, so if you’ll use 10% of the raw material, you’ll get 3% of the actual CAPB. 

[Paprik]

Yeah, try to limit the air you introduce into the formula.
You need to make enough product to keep the head (of the homogenizer) under the surface so it does not suck air into the product. 

If you have some fish eyes, you will get rid of them when you homogenize your emulsion.

[Paprik]

Thanks @Perry. 

[Paprik]

Funny, I was exploring this yesterday for my assessment. 
In case you would get some really detailed info -> 

https://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out121_en.pdf

[Paprik]

What do you mean by “horrible” and “not that bad”?
Let me guess, the hair feel greasy, lank and heavy? 

In my opinion too much lipid input.
Increase BTMS, that should make the majority of the formula. Thicken it with some of that thickener and use about 10% lipid only. 

Something like 40-50% BTMS, 35% Behenyl Alcohol, 10% Lipids, Vit E (do not forget that as you are using plant lipids), [Fragrance and added extras (low inputs) such as glycerin based extracts?]. 

Give it a try and see.
It’s really about getting the right consistency and feel. Happy formulating!

[Paprik]

YAAY!! Congratulations Perry. You definitely deserve this! So proud of you To many many more awards! 

[Paprik]

In my opinion you have way too much Tocopherol. You are trying to protect 5% lipid only. This much might cause pro-oxidation. 

I would also drop Tocopherol Acetate or remove it completely. Tocopherol will give you some skin antioxidant benefits too. 

Other than that, I have the same question as Perry. 

[Paprik]

Are you using any silicone that cuts micro foaming? 
If so, try to remove it and see. If it foams on the skin when rubbing, then yes, you are having too much emulsifier. 

However, if you are happy with the viscosity/creaminess and no one is experiencing any irritation (from anionic emulsifiers) you can leave it as is.

You may also avoid anionic emulsifier for this % lipid input, use only non-ionic which most likely won’t cause any irritation and you’re safe.

[Paprik]

Your essential oils can “destroy” your viscosity. What’s the % input of them?

Also, do not forget to add an antioxidant for your essential oils. 

Does the formula thicken by itself when you have Taurate and Cocamidopropyl betaine and Isethionate present? Or after adjusting pH to 5 - 6?

Do you add any salt to it? 

What’s the active matter of each ingredients in your formula?

Lauryl Glucoside also causes loss of viscosity sometimes. Try it without. 

You can try to dissolve SA in Propanediol. (Propylene Glycol does thin out products)

Phenoxyethanol by itself is not sufficient preservative (not “broad spectrum”)

[Paprik]

1. Use it to gel your water phase. This way you will see if you have any fish eyes or clumps. Not that it would matter that much is you use homogenizer. This should solve the issue.
2. The best way how to incorporate Xanthan Gum is to slurry it in some humectant, such as Glycerin. Mix those two and then simply add to your water phase under low shear and you will see how easily it goes in. No fish eyes, no problems. No waiting needed. 

[Paprik]

To add to all above:

1% of lavender essential oil will be a killer! Typically MAX 0.5% for face products would be safe. 
Start with 0.1% and see how it goes. I’m surprised no one complained yet, haha. 

You are also mixing non-polar and polar lipids. You may get some syneresis over time.

You are also stabilising more than 20% of lipid and I don’t see any rheology modifier. Stability testing would be necessary.  

I would start with much simpler formula and add actives and other ingredients as you go.  

[Paprik]

Sulfosuccinates do not thicken easily / they are not salt responsive. You may need to use some sort of gum or polymer to thicken your formula. 

Polyquaternium works great at lower % input. Not always “the more the better” works in cosmetic. If you use too much of a polyquat, the hair will feel terrible. I guess that is the problem with your shampoo. Plus probably high active matter input.

Also, you shouldn’t use pure silicones in your formula. There is no benefit to it, it will only destabilize your formula and kill the foam. Use some ethoxylated lipids, superfatting agents or similar. 

[Paprik]

I usually recommend and use only low shear when working with surfactants. However @ketchito ‘s process should work, so give it a try. Especially if you do not want to use any humectant (such as Glycerin) and slurry the gum. (slurring the gum won’t reduce its effectiveness)

One more thing, Guar gum has kind of low viscosity modifying effect. Typically Guar gum is used up to 2%. So 0.3% will not do much.

Well, last point, why are you even using gum? You are using SLES, this should easily thicken with NaCl. You can try to increase Cocamidopropyl Betaine (again, 30% active will give you at 3% input only 0.9% actual Cocamidopropyl Betaine) to have more salt from it, adjust pH to approx. 5.3 - 5.8 and see how it goes. After that, start to add 0.3-0.5% NaCl every time until you reach desired viscosity. (max 3%. Or if you add too much, the viscosity will irreversibly drop)

[Paprik]

I guess you could try to solubilize the Amodimethicone prior to adding it?
And add that in small increments and always wait until solution clears out. 

I believe Amodimethicones are more suited for conditioners - o/w emulsions.