[ngarayeva001]

Guys, if looking at it practically, as Perry said, generally speaking there is no difference. A 15% active matter SLES/CAPB mixture with a pH anywhere around 7 can be used for everything.

However, from a consumer point of view: people who got used to using soap on their hands like the squeaky clean feel. It means, that adding quaternary compounds to a hand soap is kind of a waste.

Exactly the same formula with a small amount of, say Polyquaternium 7, though will make a nice shower gel. A good shampoo will need even more cationics for a “conditioned feel”. A face wash would not need any cationics, because they tend to irritate eyes.

I would also agree that a face wash is better when has less active matter (8-10% although depends on surfactants), a shampoo for everyday use is good at 15% (clarifying can be more). In my opinion shower gel can be 15% as well, but the hand soap can be higher (skin on our hands is thicker and gets more dirty). 

[ngarayeva001]

@Perry, it’s leave on conditioner in a sprayer bottle. Very thin, applied on damp hair and doesn’t really do much.

@Jar, Are you specifically looking to recreate this product? The reason why I am asking is that I tried many of Bumble and Bumble products, and it’s definitely not the best one. There is another primer they sell: https://www.bumbleandbumble.co.uk/product/19055/31247/style/pre-stylers/hairdressers-invisible-oil-heatuv-protective-primer#

WaterAquaEau, Cetearyl Alcohol, Butylene Glycol, PEG-12 Glyceryl Dimyristate, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Macadamia Integrifolia Seed Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Gardenia Tahitensis (Tiare) Flower Extract, Argania Spinosa Kernel Oil, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Hydroxypropyltrimonium Hydrolyzed Corn Starch, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein PG-Propyl Silanetriol, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein PG-Propyl Silanetriol, Dimethicone, Glycerin, Sodium Hyaluronate, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Distearyldimonium Chloride, Dimethiconol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Sodium Chloride, Citric Acid, BHT, Fragrance (Parfum), Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Limonene, Coumarin, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Potassium Sorbate, Phenoxyethanol.

Look how many more real detangling and conditioning (bold) ingredients are there.

[ngarayeva001]

Here is your calculation:

INCI	Concentration	Use from the bottle	Active Matter
SLES	70%	12%	8.40%
CAPB	35%	14%	4.90%
Sarcosinate	30%	8%	2.40%

Now the total matter is 15%. Add CAPB in the very end. You will not even need carbopol, it will thicken with salt.

[ngarayeva001]

Guys!!! I found cheap dimethiconol!

https://www.manischemicals.com/en/silicones/351-brb1834-silicone-gel.html

I have just placed an order for a litre, my hair will be happy :smiley:

@Doreen, same price for the shipping as glamour.

[ngarayeva001]

Can you use synthetics? I was going to say you need a film former but I don’t know much about natural ones.

[ngarayeva001]

I make foundations, concealers and color correctors but I agree that certain things must be left to professionals.

[ngarayeva001]

They have a lot of amazing ingredients including a lot of interesting stuff for color cosmetics. They ship to the UK for 14 EUR within a week.

[ngarayeva001]

@Pharma, that a great tip about chewing gum! 

Regarding oil for long hair, have you tried dimethiconol in cyclopentasiloxane? Just the blend not some commercial product. It’s amazing as is. I have many times chemically straightened (supposedly once with formaldehyde), dyed, flat ironed and generally speaking chemically abused long hair. Dimethiconol is incredible. I usually get it from glamourcosmetics an Italian repacker, but I don’t think they ship to Switzerland.. there are other places where you can get it (let me know if you are interested and I will check my notes) I dilute it a bit with more cyclopentasiloxane and add 5% of phenyl trimethicone. End up with around 5% of demethiconol and 5% of phenyl trimethicone.

[ngarayeva001]

I have been looking for a scientific proof of skin benefits provided by topically applied ceramides for a while but all existing studies are not solid enough. I raised a topic here but several professional chemists pointed out on not so reliable methods used in those studies (vehicle with petrolatum). I would be happy to find such a proof because I really like ceramides/cholesterol blend sold by makingcosmetics. Maybe it’s placebo but I can swear I feel the difference..
@Lindsey1009, I believe makingcosmetics sell repackaged Evonik ceramides. Lotioncrafter sells chinese version (same blend with cholesterol) and it’s more affordable. I didn’t notice much difference. Looks identical (rheology, overall look).

[ngarayeva001]

https://makingskincare.com/surfactant-calculator/

[ngarayeva001]

It’s not CDEA, you simply don’t have enough surfactants. You need 15 to 20% of active mass. You currently have just 8%. It doesn’t cleanse properly. Recalculate it and make sure that CABP is > than third of SLES as Gunter advised. I usually go for 50% but that could be overkill.

[ngarayeva001]

@Gunther, thank you very much! This is exactly the information I was looking for.

[ngarayeva001]

Question #1 why do you need carbopol?
Question #2 surfactants percentages, are you using active matter or is it 8% of SLES as supplied?
Question #3 preservative?

[ngarayeva001]

Out of sulfate free I find olefin sulfonate the best option: also very cheap (funny enough repackers in the UK sell SLES and SLS at a higher price), a decent foamer, easy to use, reacts well to thickeners (and even to salt a little bit), milder than SLES. The only thing, it’s yellow.

[ngarayeva001]

I am afraid no one will be able to tell you. It’s a matter of color matching and the best thing you can do is to find a commercial product that you like and use it as a benchmark. By the way I don’t see green in concealers too often. Blue #1 is more common.

[ngarayeva001]

I think that 1% of Sepimax zen is going to be wobbly. Try 2.5% Sepinov EMT 10 and 0.5% of Zen.

[ngarayeva001]

Potentially. SLS is not mild. What is your formula?

[ngarayeva001]

No, this is not how it works. First of all what is your skin type on Fitzpatrick scale? Your formula isn’t able to change your skin color. There is no safe way to change it.

[ngarayeva001]

Arlacel is not about aesthetics it’s about stability. If you want to get silicone feel, you can go for Sepiplus 400. I personally don’t like it as it tends to ball.
Other than that, as I said Sepinov EMT 10 and Sepimax Zen combination. I don’t think you need to add anything, because you will get enough slip. You can add 1-2% of coco caprylate to your oil phase, but it’s a matter of taste. I think it’s too much of a slip. Try it and see whether you like it. 

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Bill_Toge. It’s important for me to know this. I am usually curious about all personal care products even if I don’t make them (for example I don’t make deodorants but at least have an idea what’s in it) but I never explored professional hair care because it’s too “serious” for a non chemist. I guess I won’t get cancer from one treatment, but I will learn my lesson and think before getting hair straightening done in shady places

[ngarayeva001]

I use it at 15% in my lip balm:

INCI	%
Octyldodecanol	31%
Euphorbia Cerifera	4%
Beeswax	20%
Petrolatum	25%
Stearic acid	15%
Behenyl Alcohol	5%

[ngarayeva001]

It is safe to use in lip balms and there are no restrictions. Stearic acid is a fatty acid that can be found in many butters. Look at the fatty acid profile of the Cacao butter, and you will see it’s 30% stearic acid.

It becomes a surfactant only when neutralised. It is also used in moisturised as a thickener, same way as cetearyl alcohol, and it has no emulsification properties like that.
  
If you see stearic acid as one of the first ingredients, triethanolamine higher than 1% line and no other emulsifiers, then it is used as an emulsifier because stearic acid was neutralised by TEA and formed an old fashioned emulsifier called TEA-stearate, which is a soap.

[ngarayeva001]

Currently you pH might be as low as to 1. Get rid of the vitamin C and vitamin E. They only complicate everything. pKa of both lactic and glycolic acid is 3.8 so keep the pH around that. Why your dimethicone in the cool down phase? 

[ngarayeva001]

Oh, if you want a cream with nice and light texture (especially opaque) go for my suggestion above with arlacel 165, Sepinov EMT 10, and Sepimax Zen. Try that and also try up cetyl alcohol to 3% and reduce Sepinov to 0.7% (with other inputs the same) and see which version you like the best.

[ngarayeva001]

Thank you @Pharma. I only had a chance to watch the videos now and it’s clearly a HIPE w/o, as I suggested before.

@Dtdang, add magnesium sulfate to the water phase. It’s actually important. If you don’t have magnesium sulfate at least  add sea salt (but not table salt). I often use polyglyceryl-3 triolivate as co-emulsifier in W/O, as they suggested in the second video. If you don’t have it, some thickener in the oil phase might be useful. Either a little of hydrogenated oil (like hydrogenated jojoba wax) or polyglycerol -3 beeswax. And be ready that this emulsion will separate. It takes a while to get w/o right.