ngarayeva001
Forum Replies Created
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There are some great w/o but much less than o/w. One good example is this one https://incidecoder.com/products/khiels-creamy-eye-treatment-with-avocado
This is one of Kiehl’s best sellers as far as I am aware.
There are a couple of others in lux segment:
https://incidecoder.com/products/sisley-black-rose-skin-infusion-cream
very elegant with very long playtime. I can’t find these emulsifiers, one is dow’s 5300 (I only managed to get 5600 which is not the same).
This one is w/si, really pretty texture:
https://incidecoder.com/products/la-mer-the-eye-concentrate
ingredients easier to find.I understand all of it might not be feasible for you because those are pricey materials and w/o are not easy to deal with (most of my attempts end up separating) but just FYI these are very elegant W/Os that are currently on the market in the luxury segment. They feel “expensive” upon application and last much longer than o/w
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There are ‘oil-free’ foundations as well. And since most foundations are w/si oil free foundations are made with D5 instead of other silicones.
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There are many suppliers’ charts comparing mildness using various methods, my point is that some anionics are more gentle than non-ionics. There is, unfortunately, no straightforward rule that non-ionic surfactants are milder. The most common non-ionic surfactants for shower gels are glucosides and they are far from mild and not the best materials to work with in general.
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It depends on particular surfactant. What is more irritating decyl glucoside or sodium cocoyl glutamate?
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hah this is the book I have been reading during my everyday commute to work for about a year already (and probably will be reading for another two years) I think the point is about non watersoluble silicones.These amodimethicone emulsions can be quite different apparently. I tried Amodimethicone (and) Trideceth-12 (and) Cetrimonium Chloride and Amodimethicone (and) C11-15 Pareth-5 (and) C11-15 Pareth-9 and the second one is much stronger. Your blend has water as a first ingredient which makes me think it’s less concentrated so maybe you need more. I can see a clear difference with amodimethicone and it doesn’t impact foaming.
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@Gunther, it’s hard to tell in a body product but I think it makes some difference in a face wash.
May I ask the reason for dropping anionic and using non-ionic? -
The main problem is that you don’t even know if it failed or not because they fail on bacteria much earlier than on mold but you can’t see it. You don’t always see colonies of mold when product is actually severely contaminated.
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@Zink there are ways to get long-lasting moisturisation and keeping it elegant. You can either add a little bit of petrolatum and combine it with lighter esters, or make HIPE w/o. Nothing can beat w/o when it comes long-lasting moisturisation. For example, if you make o/w with 10% of oil and w/o with 10% of the oil the w/o one will last on the skin much longer without a greasy feel. They come with tons of problems unfortunately as are utterly unstable.
If you stick to o/w, to get “the elegant”, replace some of the fatty alcohols with polymers. For example, instead of using say, 4% of Cetearyl alcohol, you can use 2% but add 0.5% of something like Sepinov EMT10, or Aristoflex AVC.
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I think I understand what type of effect you are trying to achieve and it’s doable with materials available from repackagers. You would need polyquaterniums and/or amodimethicone. It is very hard to suggest amounts because materials can vary significantly. But these ingredients do create that “slippery” feel you are looking for.
Another important thing is surfactants. As per LOI, there is not too much of CAPB, but this is a thing that makes the product more gentle, so I would add more of it. Be careful with SCI. This is a very tricky ingredient in liquid products. It is my understanding that it’s used at a low % and it’s a pain to work with in general. It needs to be melted and it varies by supplier significantly (and some varieties are absolutely impossible to melt). It tends to recrystallise, so I would skip it at all or replace with another mild surfactant.
Refatteners are also very helpful in making the product milder. Either glyceryl oleate as mentioned above or PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate. You can also add some kind of hydrolysed protein that would act as a film former, but it’s a pain to preserve and expensive.Feel free to use this as an example. I would not say you don’t need a moisturiser after it at all but it’s less stripping than most commercial products:
INCI % Aqua 41.1% Tetrasodium
EDTA0.2% Polyquaternium
100.2% Sodium C14-16
Olefin Sulfonate (ASM 39%)10.0% SLES (ASM 27%) 30.0% PEG-7 Glyceryl
cocoate1.0% Cocamidopropyl
Betaine (ASM 35%)15.0% Germaben II 1.0% Glycerin 1.0% Amodimethicone 0.5% -
Links to ulprospector are useless for anyone who’s not a part of well established business.
Here is a couple of points. Are you absolutely sure that it is the ingredient in question that is responsible for moisturising effect? Shower gels are not supposed to moisturise. It’s not their function and whatever you are going to add will be rinsed down the drain unless it’s cationic. I can see a couple of common cationic ingredients in this formula. Long story short what makes shower gel good is right combination of surfactants and a little bit of conditioning ingredients. -
The most difficult thing in doing this as a hobby is that we have to deal with repackagers. The ingredient I can get wasn’t stored the same way it was for a manufacturer and that 25kg drum of an emulsifier was decanted thousand times to smaller bottles. Open and close, let air in, let dust in, let bacteria in. So DIY ingredients are compromised from day 1. I see commercial products preserved with PE9010 and they do last. There’s no way PE9010 will keep my product safe for 2 years. I had it failed visibly twice (how many times it failed and I didn’t notice?). Same with other even serious preservatives like germall. Don’t want to discourage anyone but even formaldehyde releasers aren’t a guarantee. Add EDTA, add glycols, add the maximum amount of preservative (and potentially even combine several blends), don’t add bug food and have reasonable expectations about shelf like. When I gift what I make I say ‘use within 3 months’. It’s quite upsetting for me because I am a ‘synthetic’ formulator and my formulas would last for much longer if they were made under proper conditions but I have to be real. So @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, maybe don’t rely on DMDM alone.
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I guess the main problem is to make it compatible with eczematic and acne-prone skin as eczematic skin benefits from heavier emollients and acne-prone skin might get worse.
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I like polysorbate 80. It’s Old but gold. I am very fussy about eye tingling and like water resistant makeup (which doesn’t help). Polysorbate 80 is very gentle on eyes. I use it in both oil cleanser (poly 80, alkyl benzoate and a little bit of Cithrol 10 gtis) and micellar water. I don’t see much difference in performance between 1.5% of PEG-6 cc glycerides and poly 80 in a micellar water.
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@Bill_Toge, I agree and I noticed wrongly written LOIs before. Usually if it’s a large brand like L’Oreal it’s correct. I like to see how ingredients are used together. For example I have been exploring w/si recently and analyzing as many LOIs as possible gives a good idea what is used to stabilize them. You start seeing patterns.
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That is where I stopped reading. When they said EDTA is a preservative.
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I just imagined an oil-free product with hydrocarbons like squalane. So oil-free
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Funny enough, some beauty bloggers confuse PG with oil and they spread this misconception. It probably feels “oily” to them for the lack of understanding of what glycols are. I am talking about things like the ordinary’s 3% ferulic acid and 3% resveratrol in PG (three ingredients). Heard that several times. It comes in a context that one must apply waterbased serums before oil-based serums.
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I spend hours on incidecoder reading LOIs (I know that their notes on whether an ingredient is goodie or not are irrelevant, I just like the format of having all in one place). Work of other people (and especially a successful one) is a never-ending source of inspiration.
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Also, AHA/BHA peel isn’t for leaving on skin. It’s a ‘mask’ that supposed to be rinsed off. The highest leave in product they have is 10% lactic acid.
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Check the pH of these products. It’s not low enough to make them work at full strength.
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They just need a story. I am interested in the luxury segment, so quite familiar with LOIs and stories behind it. The original product by La Mer utilises the story about a scientist who suffered in an accident and created “miracle broth” to heal his burned skin. A “miracle” combination of petrolatum, glycerin and lanolin. These all are great ingredients, but you can’t sell it alone for $220 per jar, so plankton extract (and whatever algae is there) comes handy.
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Well if someone wants to make SA bomb at least dissolve it in PG. Not amazing at this concentration but at least better than alcohol.
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A good example of outrageously long LOI and ridiculous price:
https://incidecoder.com/products/la-mer-the-eye-concentrate
I must admit the texture is fantastic. Leaving fairy dust aside it’s a very beautiful formula - W/Si featuring really nice emulsifiers.
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Many years ago when I was a teenager and lived in ‘the old country’ there was that concoction sold in pharmacies. It contained nothing else but ethyl alcohol and salicylic acid. Some outrageous amount of salicylic acid (probably closer to 20%). I still have a couple of post acne spots from that stuff. Even hydroquinone can’t fix it. We used it because we didn’t have anything else. There are plenty of effective anti acne ingredients, starting from zinc pca and niacinamide (for minor issues) to 2% SA toners (without alcohol) to benzyl peroxide and tretinion. There’s absolutely no need in over-drying skin.
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And pH should not be lower than 3 unless it’s a concentrated professional peel done by a dermatologist. SA at 10% would be much lower.